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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Apr 28, 2008 - 06:32pm PT
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Fat Dad, I think it's probably because Wright spoke at the National Press Club this morning.
The reverand sounds like a bigot to me. I watched the 55 minute speech and Q/A session.
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 28, 2008 - 06:34pm PT
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LEB
"Stating that I have curly hair you have straight hair does not imply that one is better than the other - it is a simple statement of fact."
you're equating physical appearance with the good reverend's claims about intellectual ability, which he stated as "fact"; now, many people (primarily euro left brains) have been called racist and lost their jobs because they claimed that euro left brains make better quarterbacks than african right brains, which the good reverend's comments seem to support...jimmy the greek lost his job because he said that africans' muscular structure makes them superior athletes (able to run faster and jump higher)...now the good reverend has applied the same idea to intellect
funny, the good reverend was, i believe, using his claims to explain why africans perform differently in school...you, with a straight face i presume, claim the success of asians is cultural not racial...so it seems you and the good reverend disagree
Fat
this is new, at least to me; i've never heard the good reverend discuss (preach?) about intellectual differences between africans and euros...i've never heard him claim that the only reason obama denounced certain "sermons" is because "politicians say what they have to say for electability"...
today he claimed that farrakhan has not made an anti-semitic statement in 20 years...and farrakhan is one of the "most important voices of the 20th and 21st centuries"
as long as he keeps talking, obama will have to deal with what he says...you might not like that, but it's a fact because the good reverend's statements get people talking...my local news (nbc) carried the good reverend's statements on the 4, 5, and 6 oclock newscasts...i have a strong feeling that nbc world news will feature it at 7
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 28, 2008 - 06:44pm PT
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one more thing, although st is probably not the best place to find an answer since i assume we're mostly euro left brains...
i've heard much in the past about "black churches" and took this to mean churches that have a predominately black congregation...and often southern baptist and often featuring lively music and charismatic pastors
lately, thanks to the good reverend and his supporters, i've started hearing references to "the black church" seeming to suggest that all africans not only think alike (right brained) but also worship alike...i find this troubling, too, again in part, because i can imagine the howls of protest if a white minister referred to the "white church" but, more importantly, by the apparent effort to group all black church goers together (or the suggestion that those who don't attend a church modeled after the good reverend's are outside the black experience)
i don't know...maybe it's just my euro left brain getting in the way again
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dirtbag
climber
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Apr 28, 2008 - 06:49pm PT
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I guess I could feign outrage about all this supposed racism, but in the end I really don't give a sh#t.
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Apr 28, 2008 - 06:52pm PT
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locker - true. But not for the reason you think.
The whole right-left brain thing was discredited a long time ago.
Only old folks hanging around on the taco stand probably have even heard of it.
Kind of like people who still think Freud had something going.
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Ed Bannister
Mountain climber
Riverside, CA
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Apr 28, 2008 - 08:33pm PT
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lots of race based selectivity:
Ebony Magazine
NAACP
"Black" Churches
Black Television, etc.
how long would Ivory magazine last?
Abraham Lincoln did not do what was best for his "group."
He did what was right.
And, Dr. Martin Luther King sought integration, and would have rejected the term "Black Community" for it's obvious contradiction.
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 29, 2008 - 11:30am PT
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let's define racism...
is it hatred of another race? no; racism refers to the use of race as the "determining factor" when considering a group of people...if i say, "asians" are smart", i'm not expressing hatred; i'm simply using race to expalin an apparent tendency in a specific group of people...that's EXACTLY what the good reverend did when he presented his left brain/right brain theory
i've heard many black people say, "black people CAN'T be racist"; obviously, they're expressing love for their race, but that's a racist statment
when black people accuse other blacks of "acting white", they're making a racist remark
now, i understand that slavery was wrong--i'll even call it evil--but neither americans nor europeans invented slavery...and the worldwide abolition of slavery can be traced to one white, christian man: william wilberforce, a member of the british parliament
and i think america has paid for its crime/sin...thousands died in the civil war to end slavery (i know that wasn't the cause of the war, but many union soldiers joined just for that reason)...many white people risked imprisonment or worse helping slaves escape (john brown was only the most famous)...many whites--even in the south--risked repercussions to support the civil rights movement...and let's not forget the members of congress (republicans) who pushed the civil rights legislation through...one can argue that it was late in coming, but i say america has made rapid progress
and yes, i understand resentment, but when does it end? my mother is japanese; she lost both parents in an american air raid; she's an american citizen, now, and loves this country (as do the majority of japanese despite hiroshima and nagasaki)...mlk's movement was not based on resentment; in fact, he urged people to put aside resentment and bitterness to focus on what was right; he never said, "god damn america" for what happened in the past or even for what happened to him; he praised america for the truths that it was founded on
and look at the jews who have been oppressed everywhere (by virtually everyone) for over 4,000 years...but jackson and sharpton and farrakhan can all make anti-semitic remarks and nobody on the left bats and eye
compare that with michelle obama who lamented that her "test scores weren't good enough for princeton"; i've never heard her express any gratitude to the people who admitted her to princeton despite those low test scores
and how is the good reverend "helping" his people? by telling them they can't succeed in school because their brains are different? by fostering resentment and bitterness? by promoting a sense of entitlement? by encouraging his people to depend on the government to solve their problems? should we just ignore a man who preaches what can rightly be called hatred to thousands of people? aren't we obilgated to call out racism everywhere we see it?
is there racism in america? of course...as there is in every country in the world...and so many people--of all races--believe their lives will be better in america...and they're right
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/04/28/AR2008042802102.html?nav=rss_opinion/columns
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 29, 2008 - 11:34am PT
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Bookworm
The root cause of racism is the false identification of the soul thinking it's the body.
One must come to the original root to understand the branches above.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Apr 29, 2008 - 11:54am PT
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I agree with most of bookworm's sentiment. We need to understand that we are all Americans in this country, forget all the divisive qualifiers like African-Americans, Arab-Americans, Latino-Americans.
It's divisive in the larger picture. We're all Americans and should treat each other based on our merits or demerits, not on race or gender or religious affiliation.
And in the ultimate scheme of things (I think this is Werner's point) we are all human beings and are governed by human nature with some cultural influences also.
Our American culture is quite different than the boader Arab culture but we still have more in common than not. We should focus on the things that we share in common and work from there.
For people to constantly bring up the sins of the past and focus on our differences is unhealthy and frankly, racist by definition.
We're all Americans, damnit, we have coomon goals and a common culture. Let's focus on that.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Apr 29, 2008 - 03:00pm PT
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My point is if we all focused on the traditional American cultural values of education, hard work, family, and freedom we would be doing much better.
This has a lot do with parenting and instilling certain expectations into our children. That you can achieve if you apply yourself.
Race has nothing do with being capable of relative success (middle class) in this country anymore. It's about having good caring parents to guide you and pick you up when you fall, and then encourage you to keep trying.
Oprah and fast food culture is a symptom of the larger problem. Just doing what's easy, fast, or pleasurable instead of doing some harder work that we know is slightly harder but more rewarding in the end.
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dirtbag
climber
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Apr 29, 2008 - 03:08pm PT
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"Race has nothing do with being capable of relative success (middle class) in this country anymore. It's about having good caring parents to guide you and pick you up when you fall, and then encourage you to keep trying."
Yes and no.
While the legal barriers are gone and the societal barriers are disappearing quickly, there is still a lot of residual socioeconomic baggage from our country's racist past that still gets in the way of advancement for many.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Apr 29, 2008 - 04:09pm PT
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Geez, wes, you're such a cynic and pessimist.
I did make pretty broad generalizations but I think you have to when trying to descibe an entire culture of 300 million people. There is differences and nuace, I chose the broader culture, yes, the way I see it.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Apr 29, 2008 - 04:09pm PT
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It's always easy for those who haven't felt repressed to say "hey we just need to forget all that and BE AMERICANS." This is horrendously short sighted and self-serving. The people in question are living a cultural, economic and social legacy that reflects their oppressed past. It's like when cut-throat businessmen spend their whole lives amassing great fortunes at the expense of others and then "come to Jesus" later in life and become altruistic and egalitarian.
If you want everyone to "just be Americans" then start addressing the inequalities of the past, and acknowledging the problems that exist because of them. Saying that we just need to "move on" is simply sweeping them under the carpet where it will continue to fester, just as it is now.
Ps- Acknowledging them also means DOING something to rectify them.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Apr 29, 2008 - 04:15pm PT
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My granparents immigrated to this country between WWl and WWll we have all lived in the North. None of my ancestors had one single damn thing to do with Slavery or making ANYONE ride in the back of the buss yet I get lumpped in there and blamed for the problems of black people? Somehow I am supposed to have some kind of collective white guilt for all these crimes against black people who I never even met?? WTF that sh#t pisses me right the f*#k off!! I can barely pay the rent on a cabin that is built arround an old Airstream trailer, My car has 187,000 miles on it and I still owe a thousand dollars on it and there is a Black guy running for president who I will most likly vote for if he dosen't self destruct... as far as I am concerned The black comunity need to stop whining and start getting their sh#t together!! They cry about about how many young black men are in jail without tackeling the fact that those black men are in jail for killing other black men. It is noit whity keeping the black man down anymore. They keep themselfs down. There are even a lot of black people who will not vote for Obama because he is successfull therefore has sold out on his blackness WTF.....................
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Apr 29, 2008 - 04:30pm PT
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Trad living with the advantages of this country means living with its baggage as well.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Apr 29, 2008 - 04:32pm PT
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Yea LEB Everyone either dislikes or is jealous of one of their own who becomes too succesfull. Fairly common with alcholoics. They don't trust or praticularly like the one who quits drinking....
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Apr 29, 2008 - 05:00pm PT
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Maby even subconciously sabotageing Obamas run from simple fear of success. If Obama wins then the black comunity has to accept that they have run out of excuses. Heck If you stay out of troubble and apply yourself in school you can become president of the USA regardless of what color you are. That may just be too big a pill to swallow for a lot of folks......
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 29, 2008 - 07:34pm PT
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"That is what is in the best interest of Black persons"
why? because obama is black?
obama opposes school vouchers, yet it is black children who suffer the most in chronically failing schools and black children who will benefit the most (and have benefitted the most) from voucher programs
welfare contributed to the demise of the black family by encouraging out of wedlock births and creating dependency...it was a republican congress that passed welfare reform
i think most of you would agree that one doesn't get much whiter than W, but he did far more for africans than our first black president
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dirtbag
climber
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Apr 29, 2008 - 07:42pm PT
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"i think most of you would agree that one doesn't get much whiter than W, but he did far more for africans than our first black president "
Karl Rove speaketh.
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