Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
j
climber
cali
|
|
|
Jan 29, 2005 - 05:24pm PT
|
Lambone said:
"I disagree. From what I have read, and what I was told from their friends I don't think the climbing team was unprepared."
You can never be prepared for every eventuality. Thus, the risk (and draw) of climbing. You take steps to mitigate risk, though you can never eliminate it. There will always be unmanageable risk whether it is on a wall, a mountain, or a crag.
Clearly, the team was NOT prepared for the situation which they faced. And so it goes.
Most climbers recognize that some things can not be prepared for, and you may have to pay the piper some day.
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
|
Jan 29, 2005 - 07:16pm PT
|
This is a very emotional topic for me, as I am extremely fatigued...
Lambone: "How many people have done the Nose without a portaledge and rainfly in the past? Were they all unprepared too?"
Undoubtly many, in my plans I would go without too. Unprepared? yep, guilty. The point is that you cannot assess the risk by a historical analysis, two shuttle accidents have taught that bitter lesson, and countless climbing tragedies. You roll the dice, the dice don't remember the past.
Lambone: "Second, experience: I am not as sure about this, but I do know one thing. I have allways heard the mantra..."do a greade V befor eyou do the Captain." Well, this team climbed a grade 5 before going up on the Nose. Albeit an easy one...the SFWC. "
You cannot seriously claim that doing one grade V in the Valley prepares you for all the possible problems. It doesn't come close. Can you pull it off? yes, it is done often.
Lambone: "These two people were given advice from experienced friends in Camp 4 that they were ready to go for it..."
This does not absolve them of the responsibility, and it does not indicate what their level of experience truely was.
Lambone: "Does this mean they were unprepared, no...I don't thinks so."
I repectfully disagree. But I must say though "there but for the grace of God go I".
|
|
nature
climber
Flagstaff, AZ
|
|
|
Jan 29, 2005 - 08:20pm PT
|
I'm scared to dip my toe in this pond. I've read every post above in detail. I did the same with the posts that sprouted shortly after. I gobbled up the R&I article (which Pete did a fantastic job with). This is incredibly worthy stuff. Please don't stop (even though it's bordering on folks getting "angry" from my armchair perspective).
I don't understand the inner workings of YOSAR enough to understand how times might get messed up on reports, etc., but intuitively it seems that when push comes to shove it's difficult to remember "everything". They do their job the best they can (period). To this, there should be no doubt.
Some excellent points have been made (and reinforced for me, personally).
1) expect nothing from YOSAR - be grateful if they save your butt.
2) Melissa made the point well, and others followed in their own words. It's up to you to be prepared. But there is an excellent point made in that if you are over prepared (whatever that really means), maybe it slows you to the point that you hose yourself. Dean runs up EC with nothing - is he over or underprepared (rhetorical Q, really)? What does "being prepared" truly mean?
3) Sounds like the Japanese party made some errors in judgement. That sucks, but as pointed out above, we walk that line for a reason. We want to have to make those calls - it's part of why we climb.
4) keeping this between us strikes me a prudent course of action - regulation is around the corner if fingers get pointed.
This discussion is helpful because it helps me look in hindsight at my trips up the Captain - it makes me ask questions of myself as if I was prepared enough in the past. It's making me think a bit harder about soloing in Zion (during winter). I just wish everyone could/would do the same.
I think the point made that you'd be better off with mountaineering experience VS a grade five before trying EC is excellent. I got my ass kicked on my first EC (and wall) route - bad weather but we knew how to tough it out - climbing on Rainer, etc. helped me tough it out.
Maybe what concerns me more through all of this is that there is a growing attitude that climbing EC isn't that big of a deal - follow the better way and it's a piece of cake.
stealing a line from above, those are my two cents and yeah, you got change coming.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Jan 29, 2005 - 08:24pm PT
|
Times get logged by command post dispatch or Park dispatch according.
|
|
nature
climber
Flagstaff, AZ
|
|
|
Jan 29, 2005 - 08:48pm PT
|
Werner, not that I see it truly mattering (in the grand scheme of things) but Lambone seems pretty adament that the times are messed up. There are not many that would stand up and argue with you the way he has unless they were pretty sure of themselves. That speaks a volume or two for me (maybe a horrible assumption on my part). Perhaps this is just a really touchy subject and it sets folks of in a way they normally wouldn't.
He obviously was on the ground during the SAR. I'm sure he cared about what was going on as the rest of you guys. Again, not that it matters but I find it interesting the exchange between you two.
I'll cut my penny in six pieces and leave one of them - that's about all this post of mine was worth I figure....
EDIT: He's (Lambone) a back door man!!! atleast with his post above ;-)
|
|
Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
|
|
|
Jan 29, 2005 - 09:12pm PT
|
After scanning through these posts, I sense there is some confusion per the logic of this thing, which is not uncommon with such emotionally charged issues, at least for me.
In my view, these people died because they went up on a big rock wall and got caught in a bad storm. That's it.
When you try and factor YOSAR into the equation you're no longer talking directly about HOW or WHY folks died, but about other parties efforts to effect the how and the why of it. Trying to place direct responsibility on YOSAR, in any way shape or form, is only possible if YOSAR was doing the climbing in the first instance, and had gotten trapped on the wall during the storm. Otherwise you're saying that climbers are not directly responsible for the consequences of their decisions and their actions, when in fact, these tragic deaths tell us clearly that we are.
JL
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Jan 29, 2005 - 10:23pm PT
|
“At the time I was wondering why the PA attempt was not made at first light? This is a question I would like to hear answered.”
Nobody called or yelled for help. Nobody requested any emergency. There was nothing. I already said this (here we go again) in a different thread that me and Lober went down to the meadow at approximately 8:00 am that morning and Lober yelled several times very loudly. Remember now at this time: THERE IS NO ONE ASKING FOR ANY KIND OF ASSISTANCE OF ANY SORT.
About the ice on the ropes that is true. On one past EL CAP rescue the ropes froze solid. We had to prussik out for hundreds of feet to the top. Jugs were not working.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Jan 29, 2005 - 11:23pm PT
|
“Werner is right, the appropriate thing to do would be to make a phone call and go through the proper channels to find out. For me I don't see the need to take it any further than this forum.”
Do you see the pattern here. This is what I already knew days ago when this subject matter came up. I could’ve easily just told you yesterday to take a big flying…..
Now if somebody told you to go across the street to talk to the guy who can give you everything you need and you don’t. Instead you keep thinking your going to figure it out by yourself.. Indirect method.
A good horse runs at the sight of the whip.
A bad horse needs to be (and, yes, you guessed it) continually whipped just to get going.
I’m not defending YOSAR in my posts here. Why? There is nothing to defend.
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
|
Jan 30, 2005 - 02:11am PT
|
Lambone: "... jeeze dude, relax."
This is not a casual topic, you have raised some serious questions and have been persistent in getting answers on a difficult subject. Werner has tried to address your questions with the facts as they are known.
Lambone:"$110k was spent and two people didn't make it. Public has a right to ask questions."
This line of reasoning will eventually shut off all informal communication between the SAR community and the climbing community. Are you saying that the money was ill spent by YOSAR? Please try to imagine what those words mean to someone reading them.
Lambone:"I am asking how a professional rescue team is supposed to operate."
As you know, rescues are not scripted and rehersed activities. Every rescue is different. The post-operation debrief is an important aspect of evaluating the efficacy of the operation. Werner has been astonishingly helpful in providing information on this evaluation.
Not everyone who gets into trouble can be saved, even if they are less than a mile away from safety, even when the intevening distance puts them in sight of everyone. Questioning YOSAR's professionalism is extreme.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Jan 30, 2005 - 02:36am PT
|
I thought about not posting this: …But…. Oh well what the hell.
“jeeze dude, relax. I thought you were all about zen and sh#t...”
Your lucky I’m not otherwise I would’ve cracked some board over your thick head.
Do we see the pattern here....
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Jan 30, 2005 - 02:58pm PT
|
Board of inquiry always goes to the proper source. Supertopo NOT the proper source.
The Lambone board of inquiry: ” For me I don't see the need to take it any further than this forum.”
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Jan 30, 2005 - 06:05pm PT
|
Lambone said:
I was this close to asking Lober straight to his face in front of the news camera why he waited so long to make the call to go for the Japanese, but I resisted out of respect for him. So now, 4 months later someone thought they start this thread, and I thought I'd share information...which is more then you are doing.
If you felt like that then I don’t know what stopped you. That’s got nothing to do with respect! You want information you go to the source. I’m NOT the source. You go to the IC (incident commander) ask him. There’s a command structure in place. You go to those guys for the kind of questions you have. I have to do the same. Not me, or SuperTopo. I suggested that to David Nelson and he did.
If your wondering why I’m not going to the source for you, its not how its done.
You have certain questions that need to be answered and not altered thru a second party. I might screw up the information during the transfer. That’s why I said its not my job.
This thread is only as David said: “A Retrospective Analysis” It’s not the source.
|
|
Lg
Trad climber
NorCaL
|
|
|
Jan 30, 2005 - 07:45pm PT
|
Clueless offered his opinion:
"1. The reason those climbers died is because they went up there on their own doing and got caught in a strom and made a bad decision to stay at Camp 6.
2. The reason they were not saved is because YOSAR was too hesitant to initiate a rescue, and let critical hours squander while deciding wether to go or not. "
Hmm, when you say you are not trying to place responsibility, it sure looks like it here. Clearly you are also confused because apparently you think that SAR is 50% responsible for your well-being.
You have all the information you need yet you accuse others of holding back, not participating, etc. OPEN your eyes, just because you were in the meadow at the time you feel like you have some special right to be accusatory. When in fact, you should be ashamed. For heaven's sake this stuff has been hashed out months ago already...the mind believes what the mind wants to believe. My point? You said earlier, "I don't know and it's not my place to say. All I have are questions." Hmm well you sure seem content to offer your two opinions above after saying it's not your place.
To conclude, I adorn you with the "Unclear On the Concept" award because of your belief that Mariko and Ryoichi did NOT want to be rescued because they started climbing through the storm?!? All I can do is shake my head with that one. I believe they tried to move higher because they knew a rescue will be attempted thus, trying to bring the gap a little closer with the team coming down from the rim.
>whew< had to get that off my chest...and I'm usually all zen-like and sh*t!
Lg
|
|
Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
|
|
|
Jan 30, 2005 - 10:02pm PT
|
Interesting question: When is YOSAR supposed to go after it? And should they initiate a rescue, even if assistance is not asked for? IOW, should they proactively start swooping in on anyone they think needs help, for the well being of climbers who don't know enough to ask for help?
YOSAR is a professional outfit, yes. But the above sounds perilously close to "policing" the cliffside, and in fact, when response times and so forth are mentioned, the police model is certainly in play.
Statistics state clearly that a certain amount of folks are going to die climbing El Cap in any given decade. If we start insisting that those deaths have to be eliminated by a hypervigilant, proactive rescue team, what do you think will be lost in the bargain, in terms of freedom?
JL
|
|
Southern Man
climber
|
|
|
Jan 31, 2005 - 10:25am PT
|
I hesitate to break the sweet flow of dialogue that is taking place here BUT I have a slightly different question for this "Retrospective Analysis". After reading the R&I article, what was up with the japanese climbing duo and their haul bag? The article made it sound like the bag somehow fell, loaded on the harness of Mariko, and he had to cut it loose. I believe Lober state that when that happened, it was all pretty much over for our japanese friends. To me, cutting it loose was a key mistake. To my way of thinking, the only explanation for cutting your haul bag loose, would be if you thought you were going to make it to the top and for some reason you couldn't rap to get it unstuck. Why would you cut the line to your only means of survival, when there was only talk of a rescue. For me to cut the haul bag loose in those conditions, someone from YOSAR would have to be rapping down to me. Also, in an earlier thread, mention was made about Mariko and his wife having friends with them in the valley during their climbing trip. Where were they during the SAR? Did they ever call YOSAR to alert them to the plight of their friends? Are they the ones who called out over the PA system or was it someone else? Lastly, in the R&I article, someone with incredable forsight, saw the storm coming in, didn't wait for YOSAR, hiked to the top of El Cap and dropped a line to his girlfriend and her climbing partner so they could jug up. Too bad no one else in C4 had similar forsight, eh. And before you say it, it wasn't the boyfriends job either. Peace Out!
|
|
Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
|
|
|
Jan 31, 2005 - 11:51am PT
|
well that's alot of questions, I can only really answer one of them. The guy who called up in the PA name pronounced K-gee(sp?) was a fellow they met in Camp 4. He had helped them prepare for the big wall and new the most about what equipment and experience they had. Nice guy.
|
|
ricardo
Gym climber
San Francisco, CA
|
|
|
Jan 31, 2005 - 12:11pm PT
|
Lambone ..
.. after reading all these posts ... i have to echo what werner is saying .. why dont you call the YOSAR office and get the official report.
.. dont you think that if yosar was requried to prevent all deaths on el cap it would diminish the experience of climbing it .. i know that most big wall climbers definately get something out of the risk of climbing a big wall like el cap.
 ricardo
|
|
Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
|
|
|
Jan 31, 2005 - 12:14pm PT
|
There's no simple answers here--that's for sure.
Lambone wrote: "Which risk would you rather they take, be hypervigilant and intervine with the risk that the climbing team does not need assistance, or conservitive as people slowly freeze to death?"
This still works off the idea that YOSAR is responsibility for the well being of El Cap climbers, at least once things sart getting grave. The thorny bit here is that there might someday be a sort of "acceptable epic" check list to which all parties must conform. Meaning the caliber of your adventure will be monitored by the authorties. If your adventure starts miving off the charts, you'll get plucked off the cliffside like it or not--for your own good and to forestall bad PR on climbing in general and the authorities in particular.
I dunno . . . The cost of freedom is that some folks are going to die. The cost for a safety net is 100K every time YOSAR kick starts the chopper, and a risk criteria to which climbers must conform.
JL
|
|
yo
climber
NOT Fresno
|
|
|
Jan 31, 2005 - 12:34pm PT
|
Yup.
If it comes down to SAR being unsure for some critical amount of time which parties are where on the wall, the easy solution (for SAR, i.e. NPS) is to institute a registration system. And why not charge five bucks for that. And then when you go in to get a permit and they say, "How many in the party?" and you say, "One, I'm soloing x death route" they go, "Whoa, easy, maybe you should show us a resume first. And your bag too, we'll have to make sure you have the requisite gear: ledge, fly, tent, tarp, stove, gore-tex undies, clamming boots..."
|
|
Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
|
|
|
Jan 31, 2005 - 12:42pm PT
|
curious, is the "Friends of YOSAR" report posted in that link above NOT the official report?
you guys are right, I don't want to see that happen either.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!