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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Jan 26, 2005 - 03:37pm PT
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"When someone adds bolts to protect an original aid climb to free it, what can be done?"
In the words of our own illustrious American Chopper...
vroom vroom
Aid climbers need to defend their turf.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Jan 26, 2005 - 03:45pm PT
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Did skinner even 'scend that project? Didn't think so.
The least he could have done was make sure he could free the damn route before placing more new bolts.
lame
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Trashman
Trad climber
SLC
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 26, 2005 - 04:21pm PT
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i guess that's why i was hoping it would take some interesting twists, as far as i'm concerned the bolts on WDD should be outta there either way. even if he did send it, bad form, back to square one, try to free it w/ out next time
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jan 26, 2005 - 05:27pm PT
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A while back I picked up a freebee copy of The Oct 94 Climbing. (sorry not enough interesting content to justify buying it any more!) On pg 55 There's a photo of Caldwell on a 13c pitch on the Dihedral. The crack would obviously take pro as he has his thumb in it, but there's a row of bolts 18" from the crack. Why? Would pre placed pro would have put the rope where the feet need to be? Isn't that a bit like if I placed a line of bolts next to a splitter 5.10 tips crack because the rope kept geting in the way. That would be obviously unacceptable. What difference do a couple of numbers make?
Is pre placed pro on a supposed FFA really kosher anyway? Does that mean the cables (half dome) really qualify as a FFA? After all he walked up once it was complete! What happened to the concept that you are only as good as what you can onsight, (free or aid) and either protect yourself or submit to the risk?
I've a lot more respect for the Sorensen, et. al. FFA's at Tahquitz and Suicide, (as well as other clean ascents in other areas by other participants) that were done predominantly on sight, always from ground up, with the protection that was available at the time and still have fearsome reputations.
At some point engineered routes become rope protected bouldering exercizes. While the participants deserve acolades for their gymnastic prowess, they have still inevitably brought the stone down to their level.
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Blowboarder
Boulder climber
Sandpoint, Idaho
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Jan 26, 2005 - 05:41pm PT
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TGT,
WORD!
I WISH I WERE HARD ENOUGH TO CLIMB IN THE TRUE STYLE!
BLOWBOARDER
NOT A HARDMAN
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 26, 2005 - 05:55pm PT
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TGT
“At some point engineered routes become rope protected bouldering exercises”
True, but how would that bring the stone down to their level? They still have to climb it? Maybe protection down to their level? The disiplic succession is being lost. Splinter groups are forming everywhere with their own ideas. How to solve the problem is the difficult question. It’s easy to say “this is right and that isn’t and it should be done this way and so and so did it like this.”
Who has the answer?
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Jan 26, 2005 - 05:57pm PT
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TGT,
I don't think Tommy added new bolts to that route, just replaced some old ones...I could be wrong though.
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salbrecher
Mountain climber
vancouver
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Jan 26, 2005 - 06:02pm PT
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As of early November there were 2 bolts within reach of the A3 pitch 5 of WDD. There are a few more angling left towards the roof out of way of WDD. The second bolt in reach of the route is about halfway to a fixed KB at the top of the A3 seam. It's quite a reach to clip it. You will still cream the flakes below if you fall right before the Fixed KB. there was no fixed gear in the seam up to KB. I can't say I wasn't glad the bolts were there as it stopped a big fall I took while solo. all gear pulled and I landed a few ft above the flake. I don't know if theres any more above that, I went down after that. The pitch still has spice to it, although reduced.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Jan 26, 2005 - 06:06pm PT
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way to go Stephan! did you do that after SQ? that clears it up some, thanks.
we should do another wall...
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salbrecher
Mountain climber
vancouver
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Jan 26, 2005 - 06:12pm PT
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After SQ. I went to J tree for a week after that storm and then I came back when the forecast looked better. Camp 4 was more deserted than during that big storm. I'll be back this summer for a few months, I mean for 14 days.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jan 26, 2005 - 06:43pm PT
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I'm just an over the hill recreational climber, but I have been at it albeit at a modest level for about 35 years.
Here's what I'd like considered, and I'll use the climbs at Tahquitz and Suicide as an example.
If Sundance, Valhalla, and The Edge had been rap bolted with bolts every 8 or 10 ft would that diminish the experience? While I've personaly only got the huevos to lead Sundance, a modern sport bolted Valhalla would for sure be within my reach, possibly even The Edge. It wouldn't be the same though and would have robbed future generations of climbers of the experience when they have it together on both the physical and mental planes.
The logic behind the descisions is not dependent on the grade.
That's what I meant by bringing the stone down to their level. Someday some wonderkind will be able to pull these things off in good style, but the opportunity may be robed from them. That may be where you can draw the line between style and ethics.
Style is personal, ethics touch all that follow.
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Moof
Trad climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Nor. CA
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Jan 26, 2005 - 09:29pm PT
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A lot of these controversies come down to the panzies whining things are unnecessarily dangerous, but the ethics cover this. You simply track down the FA, explain to them what you want to do to their route, and if they give a thumbs up you have at it. Generally bolts stamped "FA approved" are very unlikely to get chopped. It would seem to me that an aspiring FFA should not have carte blanch to screw up someone elses FA just to get their name in the books. It's exactly that behavior that justifies the crowbar.
In the case that the FA is dead or unobtainable the ethic drops down to community consensus as a backup (usually consisting of buying the locals enough beer that they finally give you a drunken thumbs up).
Are these ethics outdated and quaint?
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Trashman
Trad climber
SLC
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 26, 2005 - 09:30pm PT
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nicely put TGT, i agree completely about leaving projects until they can be done in good form, especially on established routes
leave the heavy tactics for new ground
Lambone, re: bolts on dihedral, i think those are skinner's too
edit: my bad, just went back and re-read, looks like skinner did the crux pitch, not sure who bolted the crack in the photo
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OW
Trad climber
Patagonia
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Jan 26, 2005 - 10:09pm PT
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Steelmonkey and Werner seem to me to be on the right logical path. If you're gonna place a pin or bolt, you're making a significant change. If a bolt gets old and manky, I'm all for placing appropriate modern gear. So I'm not against replacing pins with bolts per se, but in certain circumstances might argue against it.
When it gets down to retrobolting an aid route to free it, I believe in local community consensus and value the opinion of the first ascensionist. You're never going to make all the people happy all the time - and the times, they still are a chaingin'. I can easily side with those wanting to preserve an old masterpiece, but not every choss pile needs to be preserved in the condition it was in when it was first aided. Especially old aid routes that aren't classics and especially old routes that don't get traffic because the quality of the line is low.
Why not focus energy on the routes that really matter? Why not focus energy on developing model systems of behavior - those being civil communication and community action?
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akclimber
Trad climber
Eagle River, AK
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Jan 26, 2005 - 11:26pm PT
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If someone adds bolts, within reason, in order to free a route that has previously gone via aid, that in no way ruins the spirit of the FA party. Those that want to aid it can still do so.
Crying about replacing manky bolts is just stupid. You are still risking the same fall. You have not changed the way the first party climbed the route-those 1/4 inchers were bomber and new when they put them in-but why increase the odds of being killed unnecessarily?
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spectreman
climber
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Jan 26, 2005 - 11:59pm PT
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I once saw Skinner solo a 50 foot 12C in Hueco, he didn't look like such a pussy on that route. I'm not really defending him, just pointing out that he is an incredibly talented free climber.
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akclimber
Trad climber
Eagle River, AK
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Jan 27, 2005 - 12:14am PT
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"What's "within reason"? "
Bolted in traditional style. In other words, use gear where possible but if a bolt needs to be placed to free it, place the bolt. Don't "sport-bolt" the whole thing.
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akclimber
Trad climber
Eagle River, AK
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Jan 27, 2005 - 12:24am PT
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Oh great, the ethics police are here too.
Don't want to flame so I'll just keep my opinions to myself on these issues from now on, I guess.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 27, 2005 - 12:27am PT
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No no, don't do that...flame away, tell us what you think. Don't be shy.
There's no police here........(grins)
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nature
climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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Jan 27, 2005 - 12:41am PT
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yeah.. there are no police around here... well except Jody but he doesn't count :-).
No police - just a bunch of as#@&%es.
The official SOB of SuperTaco's thanks you.
Over and out,
Doug
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