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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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LEB,
There's no point in trying to reason with religious zealots. They never let the facts get in the way of their faith.
The word of those that have been there and done it are suspect unless it supports their faith.
I've just been thru some expensive medical events. In November a virus ate my cochelia (sp) resulting in instant deafness in one ear and a trip to emergency with heart attack like symptoms. The last day of December my wife fell off her horse going over a fence and broke her wrist and pelvis.
I've spent far to much time in medical facilities and far too much money in the last couple of months with the end of it all still distant.
You, Tan Slacks and Radical are right on the money about the system being overwhelmed with freeloaders, only leaving out the added problem of defensive medicine resulting in tests that everyone involved knows are only to keep the lawyers at bay.
But, that doesn't fit the progressive religious model so you must be wrong.
Even if you work there every day.
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Ricky D
Trad climber
Sierra Westside
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What about the complicity of the health care industry itself - how many of your patients are there because of advertising?
You can't open a magazine or watch 10 minutes of TV without being told that you "might" have some previously unknown ailment that only this pill will cure.
Just go on in and ask your doctor if Viacentrixdocimilevalspar" is right for you!
Sometimes I get the impression that hypochondria has surpassed baseball as the favorite American pastime.
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TrundleBum
Trad climber
Las Vegas
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Quick note re RickyD's comment:
That's why I don't watch TV. * straight hrs of TV and all I want to do is:
Have sex, drive a new car, take something for an ailment, and eat, eat and eat again.
When I moved to Hawai'i in e the early 80's, I like most newcomer surf bums would get staph infection in reef rash all the time. I went to the doctor a couple times at a high price. Visit, and script for antibiotics = easy $150.00 and that was in the early / mid 80's.
Then I discovered sulpha powder. The stuff will not only knock staph into history but it actually dries and draws the infection out.
I spoke with my father about it and he told me that sulpha powder and sphagnum moss were standard issue for field soldiers in WWII.
Cool right? a $6.00 bottle of organic powder and no more staph for years.
Wrong !
It was not but a few years later I go to buy some. Couldn't find it in any store or pharmacy. After asking a pharmacist why, I was told "The AMA made it a prescription item"
Was I pissed off?
Am I pissed off ?
It is true folks, there is a true conspiracy happening between corporate Pharmaceutical co's, the AMA and Congress.
They DO NOT WANT YOU TO HEAL YOUR SELF.
I thought of all this when I read Anastasia's thread about taking out her own stitches.
Bad, Bad, bad Girl...
Anastasia, don't you know it is bad, even amoral to heal or care for yourself.
(fascitious humor)
My father and I talk a lot about the medical scene in this country.
He was on drugs that totaled over $350.00 a month.
He knocked that down to under $100.00 taking generics
(which he had to research because the info was never volunteered by a medical person)
Then he discovers half of the drugs the independent doctors have prescribed are merely combating side effects of other drugs...
There went another half the load.
His drugs now cost him about $45.00 a month and the VA pays the bill.
(information not volunteered as well... getting the VA to help with drug costs)
This country's AMA, medical profession and Congress all need to be shipped off to the moon.
I agree with Bill Clinton:
The medical insurance and AMA are killing our economy through their greed.
One more note:
I buy most of my supplies and from the veterinarians.
I discovered for example you can buy a 5lb bucket of glucosamine /chondoitin at the vet supply (intended for horses but same doo dah) for what it costs for 100 capsules at Walmart.
vet suppliers still carry, 'Bag Balm', 'Sulpha powder' etc.
(I wonder why the Bush family et.al is one of the largest stock holders in Ely Lilly?)
But what did Clinton do ?
He put his (corporate lawyer) wife in charge of a huge task force.
What did she do after spending boo-coo bucks?
Reports back that the best thing to do is basically put the decisions and power in the hands of the insurance companies... WTF is wrong with that picture?
I agree with my dad....
The only true, equatable solution for all:
(except of course the Pharmaceutical who rape at 1000% profit margin)
Is to have universal coverage,
cradle to grave,
with a one payer system.
The one payer? The Fed !
It will probably never happen.
To many Americans hear "socialized medicine" and still scream "Commy plot"
I hate the Fed, I fear the power they have slowly raped from the States.
However come on... Let's socialize medicine.
My new dream:
Some leader (go Obama go) gets into orifice (pun sorry)
And demands, and pushes through, legislature that the Fed will create a universal, 'cradle to grave' plan that offers the same quality of care to the prince and the pauper.
In my scheme, the Gov will not manufacture Pharmaceuticals, however they will forbidden to do business with any Pharmaceutical that is not non-profit.
Non-profit does not mean that nobody gets paid, some and deservedly so might get compensated quite handsomely.
But no drug company that the socialized system deals with can be 'for profit'
Corporate medical care is a frigg'n oxymoron.
The words care and profit just don't sit well on the same plate !
If you don't like the idea that you have been prescribed a generic lipitor for cholesterol management, at $.50 a pill by the socialized system, well then you are more than welcome to pay $6.00 a pill out of pocket for the brand name stuff. But the Fed/socialized system (when I rule) will not tolerate the costs nor patronize (due to it being illegal to deal with a 'for profit' Pharmaceutical co.) or prescribe it to you.
But... the economic stranglehold that the corporations have on Congress and the FED at large is a behemoth to be assailed.
I doubt I will see it in my life time !
A note:
If you listen to your elected officials (such as president Bill Clinton when ion orifice)... don't believe a word they say when comparing states like Hawai'i to others in offering universal health care.
Surgically removing the afflicted area or appendage, is not medical treatment. It's more akin to mid evil, dark ages metaphysics.
I do not consider the government offering to rip out a tooth because it has a cavity, or amputating a lower leg because it has an infected, inflamed ankle - Univeral Medical care?
Just like teachers, the people down low in the medical 'food chain' such as EMT's etc.. are getting screwed. They work hard at their education only to get screwed in pay relative to their worth to society. Only because bigger fish up the chain are eating every dollar in sight!
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jiimmy
Boulder climber
san diego
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It is expensive. Hospitals have to absorb so many bills from patients,many a bum climber, who do not have insurance. All rates go up because we are always carrying the bottom rung of society. Let em go to the light
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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LEB: "There is going to be long waits just as there is in Canada."
Sorry, Lois, wrong. (And poor grammar.) You should know better. Canada's health care system could undoubtedly be improved, and sometimes involves waits for wanted or needed services. (Both rich and poor waiting about the same time - how awful!) However, it's the exceptions that make the headlines. They're often also manipulated by those who have an agenda, whether it's those within the system wanting change (possibly for their own benefit), or more lately those outside hoping to make a case for chopping off the better bits so they can make money.
The reality, though, is that less of Canadian GNP goes on health care, and that we live longer and healthier lives than Americans. There are surely exceptions, but that's the facts. See the World Health Organization website: http://www.who.int/topics/statistics/en/
The American health care "system" is a national disgrace - particularly for the 1/3 who have limited insurance, and the 1/3 who have no insurance. As with so many other things - insane consumer borrowing, equally insane public borrowing, subprime mortgages that were little more than a shell game, an out of control military industrial complex, a damaged public education system, underinvestment in infrastructure, horrific economic inequity - it amounts to the U.S. eating its young.
But if you're a "have more" (as dimwit George memorably put it), why should you care?
I wouldn't say the Canadian health care system couldn't be improved. But most of the time it works just fine. And as with the U.S., the most effective investment we could make in public health is preventive - diet, pre and post natal care, exercise, discouraging smoking, etc.
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crøtch
climber
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"I also think the government is going to start telling me what to prescribe and it "ain't gonna" be necessarily what is best for you. It is going to be what is cheapest and I am going to be required to try the cheaper stuff (which I already know won't work in xyz situation) first and THEN after it fails, I will be "allowed" to prescribe what I want for you."
You've described exactly how my for profit medical insurance has worked for the past 5 years. My insurance won't pay for medications not on the formulary unless formulary drugs have been tried first and don't work. Sounds just like the horrible system you are afraid of and my coverage is probably better than most.
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Robb
Social climber
Pick Up Truck Heaven
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Lois, as a former EMS guy, I couldn't agree w/ you more. I tied up my unit for more lightweight "no need for service" stuff than I care to remember,and this was way back in the 80's!
As an amateur at economics it seems to be rather simple:
1) We operate a "for profit" medical system in this country.
2) The system is reacting to "The Law of Diminishing Returns".
3) Therefore, the system is at present "terminally malignant", which is to say fatally flawed.
Answer(s)?
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Mtnmun,
I have Blue Cross PPO Saver 2500 which still covers office visits with a $35 copay and has prescription drug coverage, but there is a $2500 deductible on surgery, X-rays, lab tests. The good part is that they knock down all those charges a bit to the "reasonable and customary charge" which means you pay about half of the charges. This plan would substantially cut down your monthly premium. Check it out.
Bruce
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Moof
Big Wall climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon
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Last year mine came to $8950 for myself and my wife. My work covers about 80% of that.
I'm perplexed over stem cells, and all that jazz, as we can't seem to afford to fix the stuff we figured out 20 years ago...
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Questions: Is it the general population's insurance premiums that are paying the bills on the "freeloader patients?
If a person comes into the emergency room with no insurance, does the bill "go" to an insurance provider? If so - how do they decide which provider it goes to? If not - where does the actual bill for services rendered to an uninsured person "go."
Does the hospital REALLY simply eat the bill, or does it get written off as a tax loss? If so - what percentage?
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rhyang
Ice climber
SJC
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Hmm. I'm in my early 40's and pay about $3200/yr for a blue shield PPO, since I'm self-employed. In a normal year I might go to the doctor a couple of times for an ear/sinus infection, but more usually not. It does cover dental, which I need - I wasn't born with great teeth.
This past year I broke my heel bone, and then 5 months later my neck (4 out of 7 cervical vertebrae) in an auto accident : heli-evac, ICU, two neurosurgeries, 5 weeks spinal cord injury rehab, months of outpatient physical therapy, orthosis (leg brace), forearm crutches, wheelchair rental, CT / MRI scans, x-rays, etc. That all was billed to my insurance at ~$800k from what I can tell. The first 13 days (6 in ICU) in a regular hospital (Memorial in Modesto) was billed at nearly $600k by itself.
My plan is bare-bones: $2k/year deductible, with limits of $5k/year for copays with contracted providers and $10k/year non-contracted. My car insurance had some medical payment coverage so that helped. I had to dip into savings to cover some of this though.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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I do know that the system encourages people to utilize the emergency room for free care if they are down and out but otherwise LEBs posts on this subject are truly repugnant (no pun intended). Ricky D's stories are much closer to the heart of the matter. He pays for insurance all his life and the moment he needs it, they try to price him out of keeping it. You'll notice that if he were in a group plan, they couldn't raise his rates.
To have secure health coverage in this country, you have to have a secure corporate job with a group plan. Unfortunately, very few people have actually secure corporate jobs in this economy and I know former executives now paying $1200 a month for coverage because of a "ricky D" blip and corporate layoff
LEB:
"One does not need to rush off to the doctor's office with a hang nail but people are convinced (by the insurance companies) that they should visit the doctor for every minor indisposition which comes up. The insurance companies encourage to believe that they NEED visits for every little thing and then charge them big bucks to provide insurance policies which will cover it. Insurance companies want people to over-consume healthcare via purchasing far more services then they really need. "
Such crap. The insurance companies do not want everybody running to the doctor and charging up their insurance. LEB, you admitted yourself that you have NEVER signed a medical disclaimer, meaning you NEVER have been in the system. Post about something you know about, like the actual treatment. Order any expensive tests for people to pay for that they really don't need to cover some doctor's butt?
Peace
Karl
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Bryan
climber
colorado
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"Questions: Is it the general population's insurance premiums that are paying the bills on the "freeloader patients?"
Not just the insurance premiums, also stupid souls like myself with no health insurance.
About four months ago, I took a very unfortunate fall and badly fractured the talus in both my ankles. Because of the severity of the break very few surgeons were willing to do the surgery. I eventually ended up at Denver Health. Denver's Level I Trauma hospital.
After the surgery and two nights in the hospital, I was left with more than $35 k in bills. After wading through them I was shocked at what some of the costs. $9000 for 8 screws, $1000 for 2 drill bits, WTF? Are the drill bits made out of solid gold!
Also over $3000 in the PACU, where I was charged by the minute, and my wife wasn't notified for more than 2 hours after I was out of surgery. It's also amazing how much the little charges ad up. I was charged $150 for a therapist to see if I could get in and out of my wheel chair, the same chair I'd be in for 2 weeks already! Was also charged $15 per percocet while in the hospital, since they wouldn't let me use the prescription I already had which cost $15/40 pills. WTF again...
Luckily we where able to pay our bills, minus 25% discount for cash pay, and are now fighting the hospital over the inflated prices and care I didn't ask for and really didn't need.
I talked to my doctor about this and he explained... that since Denver Health is a county hospital. 80% of their patents are uninsured, and since rarely anyone pay's their full bill, idiots like myself end up paying the most. We showed him a copy of our bill and he was shocked at the prices, and currently is helping us get some money back. He also said, he would be surprised if the insurance company's got less than 40% off the bills they paid. (again we only got 25%)
I've been trying for more than a month to get insured but with no luck. I'm currently applying with Cover Colorado. A non profit that will hopefully cover me. But for how much? We'll see.
I guess... I deserve all of this, but after reading the above comments it doesn't sound all that much better to be insured.
Here's a partial view of the bill, after we asked for it to be ITEMIZED. $11,000 is hardly itemized. We've been trying to get a better description of the costs, but after 2 months still haven't found out much else. What's also funny nobody could tell us where the billing dept was. No one knew, they are very secretly hidden somwhere at the hostpital. LOL
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Screw yourself Lois. At least I've signed the disclaimer that you claim to know nothing about and have been to billing department that the poster above claimed the hospital folks couldn't locate. You're like one of the climate change scientist they hire to dispute global climate change
You yourself write
"Someday I will tell you all about the baby who almost died because the insurance company would not approve of the drug I wanted to perscribe for the baby and insisted I first try a less expensive one (which I knew already would not work in his particular case). Once the government gets their sticky little fingers in this pie, it will be even worse."
So the current system is killing people and you say "better not change it, it MIGHT be worse if it were universal"
You make me sick (pun intended)
karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Posting in behalf of Lois in advance
"I am most certainly NOT retarded Khanom. I couldn't have the career I have if I were. But that is SUCH a CUTE Donkey that I don' t mind that you posted that image. I really want to see Chaz's Ass some day!"
LEB
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John Moosie
climber
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Lois will vote for more war. ( McCain )
Lois won't allow for any change in Health care even as she watches good people be denied care.
Lois will vote for more tax cuts as our system fails.
Because Lois is afraid.
And so are lots of Americans. Which is why we have the situations we have now.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Sorry, Lois, one possible example of what might have been less than ideal treatment, and anecdotes about Canuckleheads "flooding" the system in U.S. border states, won't wash. You of all people should know that tracking health care, and health care outcomes, is a statistical exercise. There are hundreds of thousands of people (in Canada) passing through the system every day, and undoubtedly a few of them receive less than ideal treatment. That doesn't prove anything. You have to look at the big picture.
The hard facts are that Canadians live longer, have better statistical outcomes for most things measured by WHO, and pay less for our system. Those who would like to dismantle our system, usually for their own benefit, have a hard job getting around that.
The percentage of Canadians who go to the U.S. for health care is small, and likely statistically insignificant. Probably under 1%, maybe under 0.1%. It's often because they don't want to (or sometimes truly can't) wait a while, particularly for elective surgery. Sometimes it's just that they live in a tiny place, with a big U.S. centre just across the border with facilities that aren't available nearby. In some cases, it's because a limited, specialized facility is temporarily at capacity, e.g. neo-natal intensive care, transplants - all border hospitals refer people back and forth.
It would be interesting to know how many Americans come to Canada for health care, whether because it costs less, is more convenient, they're sent across, or whatever. It certainly happens. Not to mention Americans who simply move to Canada (when they can), in part because of a sane health care system. And people from other countries. The internationalization of health care is an interesting side-topic, as Karl could tell us.
The Canadian health care system is far from perfect. It's an enormous bureaucracy. It's sometimes inefficient - as are all large organizations, private or public. We have problems on the horizon with an aging population, and increasingly interventionist medical procedures, often of debatable value. Those with a lot of money can sometimes buy treatment, or faster treatment, in the U.S. The medical-industrial complex is always trying to take over the system, although their claims that the U.S. "system" is better are transparently false and self-serving. (Unless, of course, you're in the 1/3 with good, employer-provided insurance.) And there are some social and economic inequities that need to be addressed.
Still, there are lies, damned lies, and statistics. In this case, the statistics have it, by a wide margin.
Undoubtedly our system can be improved, although it's doubtful that a "fee-enterprise" system is the way to go. It needs to focus more on preventive work. People need to understand that some day we all get sick, get old, and die - that's life. They need to understand that there isn't an unlimited supply of health care, regardless of who you are or where you live.
Health care in Canada is a complicated federal-provincial business. Jurisdiction, funding, etc. In most provinces, all taxpayers must pay an annual premium, for standard medical coverage. In B.C., it's about $650/person/year. (Employers often pay half, a taxable benefit, as part of providing extended medical, dental, and disability, insurance.) There can be fees for some things, e.g. prescriptions, devices and appliances, some services, etc. But the $650 covers most of it, and is compulsory, except for seniors and those on welfare. Extended health covers things like part of prescription costs, semi-medical treatments (e.g. physio), which are covered to a limited extent by medical insurance, and so on. And there's a pharmacare program to ensure that those who have to buy a lot of medicine, and seniors, are covered.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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It's a good topic. I apologize for steering it off-topic with getting too personal and negative with Lois.
Lois, you accuse me of whining but we're both just analyzing the problems in the system. If you read your posts, they are just as full of the same stuff, just blaming different people.
There's waste at both ends of the system, Poor folks getting aspirin at the emergency room cause they feel too poor to buy it, super insured folks getting ridiculously expensive tests for minor stuff, insurance companies profiting from denying care and physicians gaming the system to get what they need done within all the restrictions.
It bugs me that the medical folks (are you one Lois?) often seem to have this attitude when you need care "Don't worry or ask about the cost cause you are in the hospital and your health comes first" Most of the time, they don't know the cost.
Where else do you sign a blank check in advance and don't get informed about necessity of each stage? Imagine taking your car to the shop that way (A valve job now will protect you from breaking down sometime in the next 100,000 miles and being stranded)
Peace
Karl
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Bryan
climber
colorado
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Karl wrote: "It bugs me that the medical folks (are you one Lois?) often seem to have this attitude when you need care "Don't worry or ask about the cost cause you are in the hospital and your health comes first" Most of the time, they don't know the cost."
Completely true.
When I broke my ankles, I got re-splinted twice before the surgery because they didn't like the position of my ankles. Each splinting cost $300 +. The doctor that finally did the surgery said, it didn't really matter what position the ankles where in since nothing was fixed yet. The same place that charged for the splints, also charged extra for the CT scan because they did a 3D reconstruction. They thought it was, quote "COOL". Also turns out wasn't necessary.
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Tomcat
Trad climber
Chatham N.H.
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It's not complicated.The underlying issue is those mission statements at every hospital"No one will be denied care".I've employed people for twenty five years.Beer,cigarettes,breast enhancement they have money for,insurance is for fools,you can get anything at the hospital and they just"write it off".
Had a couple pulling 62K a year,she's a bartender(tips).He broke both legs and she was pregnant,signed on with Medicaid,they payed everything.Once back to work they forgot to get off Medicaid.Titties they had cash for.
Insurance does not work unless lot's of healthy people are in the mix,and they are not.You can hope all you want for socialized medicine and maybe Hillary will get it for you,it'll be no different than if they took the sign down,have you listened?EVERYONE uninsured will have to buy in,for the same reason as listed above.The only difference is that SOCIALIZED medicine will be a government clusterf*#k like Canada.
The insured pay for all the poor and uninsured,in increasing numbers.The hospital raises the rates to cover their costs,all their costs.The government requires the free for all policy,and,as always,responsible people pay the freight.
You can take the sign down,and get good results,No ability to pay? No service.Guess what,millions will buy insurance and the price comes down to where everyone can get it,as long as they have their priorities right.Or leave the sign up,and start the Socialized medicine.Once we start down that road,lots of people now buying insurance are going to go onto the government plan,and the cost for the rest of us will skyrocket.Soon we will all be on the socialized plan,just like Social Security.That's working great isn't it?
We offer 50/50 Cigna,a good plan with 20.00 co-pay,drugs,etc..Only half our employees at any time are willing to pay their half.424 month for a single,848 single with kids.
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