Steve Grossman Profiles in Courage

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Jaybro

Social climber

The West

Jan 25, 2008 - 02:23pm PT

all things considered, that is a pretty solid "treatise on old school ethics"
-nice work, Steve
-I don't think I ever thought of Cilley as a muse, before

nutjob

Trad climber

San Jose, CA

Jan 25, 2008 - 04:53pm PT

Guiding principle: let each person have the experience they want, as long as it doesn't adversely impact the experiences of others:

1) Any modification from a completely natural state has an impact on all subsequent parties, so a community discussion of ethics/rules achieves something useful- i.e. build community consensus re: what best meets the needs of the community.
2) A discussion of ethics for viewing or hanging on a route is a matter of personal honor and how you prop up your ego in your friend circle. It is not something for community debate.

Maybe #2 is too colored by my perspective. If a community has people who derive their self-worth or something of value based on claims of style or difficulty (e.g. a climbing competition, or getting more "gnarly points" for magazine articles to get sponsorships, etc) then there should be an agreed-upon system to concisely state what you did (on-sight free-solo vs. hang-dog top-rope) Beyond that, making negative judgments about style where there is no impact to the route or environment is simply putting others down in a vain attempt to elevate yourself. Then again, to each his own and for folks who need a competitive ranking atmosphere they can have all this style hair-splitting, and for the rest of us we can ignore this b.s. and just go have fun (and optionally spray about our adventures).

Hey, check me out passing judgment on those who pass judgment. Cool.

426

Sport climber

Buzzard Point, TN

Jan 25, 2008 - 05:08pm PT

I always thought SG was quite the ethicist due to his clean as can be chapter.

nutjob

Trad climber

San Jose, CA

Jan 25, 2008 - 05:14pm PT

My attitude re: route establishment is this: let's find a way to make room for everyone. Check egos at the ranger kiosk.

This is sort of like a debate of smoker's rights vs. the rights of people around them who smoke: how to reconcile the rights of one party if their actions conflict with the rights of another party? I say, take a look at what alternatives each party has for alternate means of satisfaction.

As long as there are a bunch of routes that are proud, a bunch of routes that are cowardly, and a bunch in between, then there's something for everyone and no need to get hung up in these discussions. Problems only arise when one group gets stubborn that their own way must be enforced on a specific route or area.

I guess some folks just thrive on trying to change others. And I guess I'm silly enough to be one of them by writing this.

Ghost

climber

A long way from where I started

Jan 25, 2008 - 05:26pm PT

Darryl: I’ve put up somewhere in the neighborhood of 100 routes at Index. Most via the crack tool and scrub brush method

Most of them too hard for me, but I appreciate the effort. Most "climbers" seem to believe routes come from guidebooks, and simply have no comprehension of the amount of work invested by a relatively small community.

Have you checked out Zeke's Wall? Just down the road from Index? We've been altering the vertical landscape up there over the last two or three years, and the potential is enormous. Marty (last name unknown to me) has been quietly laboring for quite a while, and has put up some great lines. Combining that with what we and a couple of other people have added recently, there must be over twenty routes now, one of which is 6 pitches. And as far as I know, nobody's confronted the main wall -- the real challenge -- yet. It's weird to have such a gem that close to 4 million people, and to have it all to ourselves.

As to the whole ethics/style thing, I think most of us here share Steve's views, modified to the degree required by the local climate and geography.

D

Nefarius

Big Wall climber

Fresno, CA

Jan 25, 2008 - 05:34pm PT

You guys too! You're as bad as the ChupaSkinwalkinUFOYeti crowd over there!!!!

Now this thread (and all those "other" threads) makes sense too... To gain further understanding, read this
You could easily substitute "supernatural" with "climbing ethics debates".

Go climb or get laid or something for f*#k sake! Sheesh!

Jaybro

Social climber

The West

Jan 25, 2008 - 05:39pm PT

What is a crack tool? Do I know one?

graniteclimber

Trad climber

Nowhere

Jan 25, 2008 - 05:47pm PT

"Climb with maximal boldness and the fewest possible drilled anchors to allow passage."

"Do not deliberately engineer long fall situations for their own sake."

Don't these conflict? Climbing with maximal boldness and the fewest possible drilled anchors means deliberately creating long run outs and/or free soloing. In either case, you are deliberately creating long fall situations.

WBraun

climber

Jan 25, 2008 - 11:07pm PT

Courage?

Peacefulness, self-control, austerity, purity, tolerance, honesty, wisdom, knowledge, this is first-class man.

Heroism, power, determination, resourcefulness, courage, generosity, and leadership, this is second-class man.

So?

With only arms, torso, and legs and no head, will only create a second-class route?