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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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Jan 15, 2008 - 10:13pm PT
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Super TR!
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10b4me
climber
1/2way between Yos and Moab
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Jan 16, 2008 - 12:37am PT
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that looks like fun!!
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Jan 16, 2008 - 07:39am PT
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C's TR really oughtta stay front page for a while.
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flamer
Trad climber
denver
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Jan 16, 2008 - 11:25am PT
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Well I'll go against what's being said.
Why would you do this?
Sure you look hard by doing it in the snow, but you also climbed on some of the softest sandstone in the desert when it was covered in snow. Which means its even weaker than normal, meaning you can very easily damage the placements that are still there. Plus you did it on the biggest trade route in the fishers(well except AA).
Is this Adventure you had, and the TR worth it? Could you have just as easily waited until spring or at least a week of good weather?
josh
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handsome B
Gym climber
SL,UT
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Jan 16, 2008 - 12:07pm PT
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"Which means its even weaker than normal"
I believe the snow acts more as a bonding agent, much like peanut butter in a dogs mouth.
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piquaclimber
Trad climber
Durango
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Jan 16, 2008 - 03:58pm PT
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Josh,
Are you serious or just trolling?
Brad
PS. the Cutler sandstone of the Fishers isn't even in the running for "some of the softest sandstone in the desert".
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flamer
Trad climber
denver
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Jan 16, 2008 - 07:03pm PT
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I'm not trolling.
And it certainly is.
josh
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gunsmoke
Trad climber
Clackamas, Oregon
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Jan 16, 2008 - 10:42pm PT
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"biggest trade route in the fishers" ???
Even Fishers now has trade routes? What's the climbing world coming to?
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clustiere
Trad climber
Rock Ridge/ Oakland CA
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Jan 16, 2008 - 11:22pm PT
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Wowo the picts are great. Looks like a cool expereince. You are aware that wet sandstone breaks more easily and that breaking sandstone forever alters the route. But hey who hasn't f*#ked up some sandstone in their time.
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piquaclimber
Trad climber
Durango
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Jan 17, 2008 - 11:31am PT
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Josh,
I am curious where else you have climbed in the desert given your belief that the Cutler in the Fisher is some of the softest sandstone out there?
Off the top of my head I would say that the following areas are all softer than the Fishers...
Arches
Cenotaph Spire area out at the Lost World Butte
Joe Wilson Canyon
Texas Canyon
Sunshine Wall
Some areas of Colroado National Monument
Parts of Valley of the Gods
Much of the rock on the Navajolands
the list could go on...
Generally speaking, Entrada and Navajo are softer than Cutler.
Cheers,
Brad
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flamer
Trad climber
denver
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Jan 17, 2008 - 01:36pm PT
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Brad,
In addition to several routes in the fishers I've climbed
All over the Moab region on all it's varities.
Multiple routes in Zion.
St George.
Colo. National monument.
Red Rock canyon outside Vegas(lots).
Garden of the gods In C. springs.
Sedona.
Mcammond Resvoir(Winslow AZ.)
Plus some I'm sure I'm forgetting.
And what I can tell you is you are splitting hairs. If you think there is softer sandstone(2 types I believe you said) then wouldn't that still make the fishers "Among" the softest?
I've found The Fishers to be very soft with water and snow affecting it dramatically.
I can also tell you that I've gone to the fishers, had it rain for days, and left with the sun shining because it was still to wet.
josh
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paganmonkeyboy
climber
mars...it's near nevada...
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Jan 17, 2008 - 01:41pm PT
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I think the sandstone is pretty hard, but the 6 - 24 inches of mud that covers it gets soft ? dunno - need to get back down there and test the theory...
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piquaclimber
Trad climber
Durango
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Jan 17, 2008 - 02:09pm PT
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Josh,
I gave two types of sandstone that are softer that Cutler only as an general and non inclusive guideline as to which areas are softer than the Fishers.
If you want to split hairs, you said that they climbed "some of the softest sandstone in the desert".... not that they climbed on one of the softest types of sandstone in the desert.
My point is that I could name 50 areas that have softer rock than the Fishers so I don't consider it to be "some of the softest rock in the desert".
Besides the real reason I posted is because I thought you post was out of place in this thread. If you want to debate what routes and areas should be ethically off-limits in the snow that's fine. Start your own thread on that topic. Don't hijack their TR.
Cheers,
Brad
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benkiessel
Trad climber
Gunnison, Co
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Jan 17, 2008 - 02:39pm PT
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Josh,
First of all thanks for not climbing in the Fishers when it was wet, good call, you and the rock would have most likely gotten f*#ked up.
However in my opinion it is unfair to say that since there was some snow on the ground that Cuckawalla was in the wrong. From the photos it does not appear that the vertical walls were wet. A little snow/ice on a ledge does not mean that the tower is going to fall down, that you are going to break off the ledge, or that you’re going to damage the route any more than a normal ascent would. It is all relative to the situation. I have climbed on sandstone when there is snow on ledges because the route is not wet and I have NOT climbed on snowy days because the route was wet. You can bitch all you want about how they could have hurt the beautiful route but you weren't there. Just because some rock is wet doesn't mean that the route is wet.
Ben
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flamer
Trad climber
denver
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Jan 17, 2008 - 05:24pm PT
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Look again at the photos Ben, I certainly did before I said anything because I know exactly what you are saying about snow being on the ground vs. on the route. They are clearly brushing it off as they climb. Not every bit...but snowmelt does run down. Look it the back of the chimney on pitch 2. Don't you think that's a pretty good example of what the rest of the cracks might be like? Well what few cracks there are on that route!
As far as "Hijacking" the thread...if someone is going to post something like this under the general guise of "check out the cool thing I did"...then it also needs to be pointed out that climbing something like this in the condition's it was isn't exactly cool.
I always view TR's as a way to get other people excited about doing something. Encouragement if you will.
Encouraging people to go out and climb sandstone routes(no matter how hard or soft) when they are covered in snow is not a good thing.
Are there some good photos? Yes. Is it a fun route worth climbing? Yep. Is it cool to climb it in this condition? No.
Did they commit some unforgiveable sin? Nope.
Did I lash out at the guy with all kind's of names and accusation's or anything? Nope. Truly not an internet flame.
I'm not totally off base here and you both know it.
josh
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benkiessel
Trad climber
Gunnison, Co
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Jan 17, 2008 - 07:14pm PT
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Josh,
I looked again at the photos and still would have to say that you would have had to been there to be able to say they were in the wrong. Although I believe there are exceptions, I agree that in general it is not a good idea to climb on sandstone when there is snow.
Ben
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Cuckawalla
Trad climber
Grand Junction, CO
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 17, 2008 - 07:48pm PT
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I guess in defense of my actions I will explain why we did this. Grand Junction is undergoing the dreaded freezing inversion, and moab was warm. That is what sparked us to go. Was the adventure worth it? Yes. I assume you think I climb purely so I can spray Trip Reports? I do a lot of photography and so a trip report is just an after thought. I dont know if you have done this route, but as far as damaging the rock, 95% of it are bolts on overhanging faces. I doubt that it has been above 30 degrees there for a while. I did brush some snow off. I would think that if it was slushy conditions climbing on this rock would be bad. May be we are ethically impaired, but our goal was to have a good experience and except for the arete pitch there was little snow.
-Jesse
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Cuckawalla
Trad climber
Grand Junction, CO
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 17, 2008 - 11:28pm PT
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Ben, when you coming down to tick some towers w/ me?
-Jesse
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Cuckawalla
Trad climber
Grand Junction, CO
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 18, 2008 - 10:49am PT
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It looked like we got the first ascent of 2008. Last recoded ascent of the King was 11/20/07. As for what I did for the C2 I got a orange alien in right off the ledge, and then tried messing with a bigger cam in the flare. The typical in lope retracted the other open. When that didn't work I topped stepped and got a slightly better flared Red Camelot higher up. I couldn't imagine being able to reach the rivet from even my last high point. I had to do a bit of free climbing to get to the next rivet.
I guess thats what is good/funny about aid climbing in a lot of cases is the different methodology in getting the heck up. Mike and I just got back from two days in Moab. WE drove all the way to Indian creek and it was snowing, drove back and had some wall street fun. As long as the wind isn't blowing it is great climbing weather.
-Jesse
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flamer
Trad climber
denver
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Jan 18, 2008 - 12:57pm PT
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Jesse I have climbed this route. You live in Grand junction so it takes how long to get to the fishers?
Rad....Blow me. I didn't attack or flame. You want to be a dick, go ahead.
I'm not advocated no climbing in the winter months. I'm advocate waiting a few days until the rock can dry out a bit or at least not posting pictures.
I'm guessing you and Jim B go way back? So you know that it was the exact same conditions? The time of year has little to do with it. Sure it holds heads, and when I spoke to the 2nd ascentionist about it he told me the rock blew out around every head when he removed it, leaving a bigger pod. Plenty strong.
The more I think about it the more I realise that "soft" isn't the right word to describe cutler....crumbly that's the right word.
Also I wonder if the cutler is as "good" as wingate(as you argue) Why have the fishers not become a free climbing destination? Lack of vertical cracks maybe, although we all know there are some. Plenty of face holds, oh but most of them pull off. Plenty strong, even when wet.
josh
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