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Prod
Social climber
Charlevoix, MI
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Jan 10, 2008 - 10:32am PT
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I remember reading the "Workout From Hell" years ago and getting a little queasy just thinking about it. Same feeling as I just reread it.
Prod.
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AbeFrohman
Trad climber
new york, NY
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Jan 10, 2008 - 10:45am PT
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I did parts of the workout from hell a few years ago. Made me STRONG. but, I'm still a chicken sh#t, so it didn't make me a strong climber.
I concentrated on pushing weight. I figured climbing is a lot of pulling, i wanted to balance things out with pushing. I was lifting 2 days a week, climbing 3-4 (2 in gym, 1 or 2 outside).
WOFH works.
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Mtnmun
Trad climber
Top of the Mountain Mun
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Jan 10, 2008 - 10:47am PT
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At one time in my life I hired a trainer. His first question; What are your goals?
I need to be able to do 50 pull ups, I replied.
He laughed and asked me how much I weigh and how tall I was.
210 was my reply. 6ft 1"
Men your size will never be able to do 50 pull ups. That is for the smaller people. Your a climber, we'll work on your opposing muscles and core strength.
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TwistedCrank
climber
Ideeho
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Jan 10, 2008 - 11:26am PT
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Lots and lots and lots and lots of streching. Aging sucks.
And power yoga. 60 minutes of power yoga and I'm sweating buckets, I'm feeling sinewy and the chicks in the class are thinking I'm one good looking crank.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Jan 10, 2008 - 11:55am PT
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Doing 50 or 100 reps of anything, whether its pullups or weights, is not power training. More like power endurance (100 is probably straight endurance).
To train for pure power, you want to be more in the 5 rep and under range.
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dlew308
Boulder climber
CA
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Jan 10, 2008 - 01:15pm PT
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Interesting work out. Day 2 workout would really violate the Law about waiting 48 hours to blast muscles. Doing chest exercises hits the triceps and shoulders while doing the back hits biceps. How do you prevent over training the smaller muscles?
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Jan 10, 2008 - 01:20pm PT
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Almost everyone has gone to much more sport-specific stuff than what we used to do. Campus board is about the only '80s exercise that remains hip. The system wall has become pretty popular in Germany and Austria, and I suppose it is in many ways a variation on the old Skinner box that Todd used to use. Some of the Germans still do some targeted weight lifting, but they're clearly in the minority.
When I'm healthy, I still do a bit of still rings, but only in really tiny doses because I've just had too many injuries. Aside from core strength and maybe front levers, there probably isn't much carryover to the rock, but it's a lot more fun than a hangboard.
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Falling
Trad climber
Splat
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Jan 10, 2008 - 03:50pm PT
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Climb
For general power: Choose problems that forces me to throw, make deadpoints, lunges, dynos, super high tension moves, etc.
Depending on the day I'll make a circuit focusing only on problems requiring any of the above movements.
For pure max Power: get on the hardest thing (for me). Same deal as before, choose problems that forces me do powerful moves, only this time I choose problems where I can barely / can't pull the first move. Work the problem / problems to death, spread out over time period of days, weeks, or months. I never work the problems to muscle failure, I stop when the "pop" isn't there anymore, then I move on to a circuit or whatever.
I always stretch after each session and on off days
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
Lake Oswego, Oregon
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Jan 10, 2008 - 04:22pm PT
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Raydog, I gotta ask... how tall are you? You want sub 130 and your a man? Damn Skeletor! The chicks must turn green when they see you.
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scuffy b
climber
Stump with a backrest
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Jan 10, 2008 - 04:32pm PT
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Raydog's about 6'3" as best I recall.
Used to drive a Mini with the driver's seat pulled out.
Had to have a sunroof.
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pyro
Big Wall climber
Ventura
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Jan 10, 2008 - 04:52pm PT
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just listen to the spirit of climbing and it will lead you to your personal strength training.
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Broken
climber
Texas
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Jan 10, 2008 - 04:54pm PT
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I agree with James regarding training max finger strength with a hangboard. And a pulley system works best, but you can also use a scale under your feet and maintain constant weight (like the dude in the youtube video that I link at the end of this post)
Anyway...
Funny watching Dave Macleod in E11 (and "Committed"), one of the best all-arounders in the world, train by cranking one arms on a beefed up door jam (and bouldering). No gym, no hangboard, no campus board. But 5.14 climbing 35 feet above gear. Inspiring.
However, the Euro's system training seems to be pretty friggin' effective.
Check out Neil Gresham's writings.
http://www.planetfear.com/article_detail.asp?a_id=203
http://www.planetfear.com/article_detail.asp?a_id=205
That link is to one of his training guides that discusses system training (the other is "Advanced Bouldering"). Scroll down and look on the left side of the page - he also has articles discussing other power training methods (he seems to advocate 2/3 hard bouldering and 1/3 fingerboard/bachar ladder etc).
They're older, but back when I was fishing around the net and reading training books, I found these pretty informative.
I ripped some stuff from a Mike Anderson post on rc.com 4 or 5 years ago (who got much of his training from Goddard's Performance Rock Climbing). He outlines his training program here. I figured he did a pretty damn good job of going from average climber to bad ass with methodical training, which is what I'd hoped to do too...
Anyway, he's huge on periodization and ARCing...
http://www.rockclimbing.com/Articles/Training_and_Technique/The_Making_of_a_Rockprodigy__258.html
And though I've never really tried it (aside from a hangboard workout or two), here are links to Eric Horst's training thoughts.
http://www.trainingforclimbing.com/new/articles.shtml
And, finally, here's a video of system training. Pretty serious, pretty strong. Specificity. I think this was posted on some climbing site a year or two ago.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VgyAN2W2Le4
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divad
Trad climber
wmass
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Jan 10, 2008 - 04:55pm PT
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My abs workout:
300 stomach crunches
3 sets of pullups, 20-25 reps
run 5 miles
drink a 6-pack
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G_Gnome
Trad climber
In the mountains... somewhere...
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Jan 10, 2008 - 04:56pm PT
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Ha ha! Ray is 'kinda short'. I'm allowed to say that though because I'm even shorter. At 130 I am feeling kinda fat. I would love to get to 120 again but I am probably stronger and healthier at 125. Currently I sit at 133 and feeling like a tub-o-lard.
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landcruiserbob
Trad climber
the ville, colorado
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Jan 10, 2008 - 04:59pm PT
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-lots of weighted dips & pullup's.
-swim 2 miles a week
-run stairs 1x a week
-boulder 1x a week
-bike, spin, or xc ski 2x a week
-bag a peak on the weekend
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bachar
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 10, 2008 - 08:10pm PT
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Broken -
Interesting stuff about "system/matrix" training. I used to have a matrix style symmetrical wall in Foresta, Yosemite. Only thing was plastic holds weren't being made yet so I made all my holds out of wood (first knuckle, second knuckle, pockets, side pulls, underclings). I thought it was a good endurance style workout and also good for training both sides of the body - it seemed to even things out because we all tend to favor certain moves on certain sides of the body. Not that good for gaining pure power however.
That German video shows a little power training but it's pretty non effective stuff for the most part. The unweighted one arm finger hangs are like James' "pooter" board thing - using a pulley system with harness to take off a little weight for developing pure finger strength on a hangboard.
I do like what they are doing at Crossfit and adapting that approach to make it more climbing specific.
It's good to hear all these different approaches - not much has changed really.
Gymnasts are still way more powerful than most top climbers it seems (except for finger strength)...
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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
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Jan 10, 2008 - 08:35pm PT
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Hey John
More specifically, what kinda power you looking at? Haven't seen any posts yet on plyometrics, or at least I missed it, but this is a very effective type of training that can develop power, explosive power. Anyway, hope the training goes well and you get plenty o' power.
Peace
ps I'll be bring the baseballs!
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Jan 10, 2008 - 08:58pm PT
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Not many people besides James and Broken really answered the question. We got alot of excuse making (like: I don't really need power, I need to be more flexible) and other bs about endurance ab/core work etc. The question was about power training.
Recently I've been looking into systematic training used by the big guns. McCleod was already mentioned. Another guy who is way into training and very generous sharing his methods is Mike Anderson, who claims to be not naturally gifted but training his way to freeing big walls. Of course he has a track record of freeing walls and a training record that shows his progression. His twin brother (who he did FreeRider with) follows a very similar method. It's a typical periodization scheme with endurance/strength/power/power endurance/rest phases that most athletes who've trained seriously will recognize
The condensed version of what these guys use for power:
For hypertrophy, about 4-6 weeks of short duration weighted dead hangs on different grips. McCleod uses a simple 1st joint campus rung, Anderson uses a hangboard. Typical advanced workout would be:
3 sets on each of 6 grip positions (say 1st joint edge, sloper, wide pinch, narrow pinch, deep ring pinky pocket, shallow index middle pocket). 10sec on/5 sec off (or 7on/3off)= 1 rep, 5 reps=1 set, rest 2 minutes between each set. Add enough weight for each grip so you can just barely fail on the last rep of each set.
You should not feel pumped. Failure from pump should be the goal in PE, not hypertrophy/max recruitment.
Immediately following the hypertrophy phase, a maximum recruitment phase of 2-3 weeks. This involves more or less what James describes on the campus board...campusing to rungs you can barely hang. This requires the muscles to fire in a short time period (power by definition IS work/time) for you to be able to hang on. It also requires your back/lats etc to fire quickly to give you enough momentum to reach the next rung. Rest a long time between sets (1 set = 1 trip up or down the board), perhaps 5-10 minutes, and stop when you lose the "snap". This probably means 4-6 sets.
Finger/forearm strength seems to be the limiting factor for almost everyone, except slab monsters like the Gnome. Look at when Sharma/Graham/(insert latest wunderkid) were first starting. They had horrible footwork, technique, and tactics. But they had some of the highest grip strength to weight ratios ever measured and sent the hardest stuff imaginable.
Pullups tend to be perpetually in vogue, but look at the elites again. McCleod could only do 24 the last time he checked (in the last couple months) and he climbs 5.14 trad. Will Gadd, on the other hand, used to be able to do a stack of them, winning pullup contests among elite climbers in europe, but getting burned off by the same guys at the crags (granted this is probably a movement example, rather than finger strength).
Seems part of the problem is that people expect to feel PUMPED and worn out after/during a good workout. In the strength/power phase that's not really how you should feel.
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bachar
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 10, 2008 - 10:33pm PT
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Elcapinyoazz - Anderson's finger training is pretty similar to what I used to do. I would always go for max recruitment in the beginning of the workout (after appropriate warmup) and then when the fast twitch fibers were tired, I would slowly start to apply more stress to the slow twitch fibers.
According to much literature, an event which causes failure in about two minutes is about 50% fast, 50% slow twitch. Like a hold that causes failure at the two minute point of a dead hang. Or think 800 meters in track - not quite a sprint, not quite a distance event. An event which causes failure in five or ten seconds is pretty much 100% fast twitch.
In my case, I would do a hangboard workout something like:
6 x 5 sec.
6 x 10 sec.
3 x 20 sec.
2 x 30 sec
1 x 60 sec.
1 x 120 sec.
All with appropriate weight to cause failure for each time interval and with one or two minutes of rest between attempts (quite time consuming to complete 6.5 minutes of hang time). I would usually use flat crimps because that was the type of hold I was training to use but sometimes would do pockets and slopers if I wanted to get better on those.
Wolfgang Gullich used to do pretty much the same system. I wish his book on training was available in English as it appeared to be quite well written (he had a degree in kinesiology) - does anybody know if this ever got translated? Dave Altman and Tony Yaniro were two others people that knew all this stuff. Most climbers didn't study training back then. Gill was another one who I'm sure had this knowledge.
All this power training knowledge is pretty well understood as the Russians figured this stuff out in the sixties and little has changed. I'm more curious about any new techniques that top climbers are using.
Gomez makes a good point about plyometrics (and negatives or eccentrics). A lot of kinesiologists think this is the real stimulus that causes the growth of the fast twitch fibers. It's not the pulling up but the letting down that stimulates the fibers into a growth response.
Fun stuff to think about... jb
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Broken
climber
Texas
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Jan 11, 2008 - 10:57am PT
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I took my first shot a periodization a few years ago. I followed a hypertrophy and max recruitment phase almost identical to what elcapinyoazz outlines:
6 grip positions 5-10 seconds on and 5-10 seconds off x 5 = one set
2-5 minutes rest between sets. Apx 5 total sets.
I used a pulley system to take weight off and a weight belt to add weight. And I did lock-off and front lever training quite a bit during this phase as well.
4-6 weeks of that and then a combination of campus board and hard, dynamic boulder problems in the gym for 2-3 weeks.
(Unfortunately, I finished my first cycle right before I broke both my legs, so I never got to figure out how much stronger I'd become. Damn.)
Anyway, I've never seen someone do a hangboard workout where they hang on a hold for 60 (or 120!) seconds. Interesting, JB.
Whenever I finally kick my elbow tendonitis, I'm gonna get back on the hangboard train (could always use some more power...)...
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