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cintune
climber
Penn's Woods
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"In the beginning Man created God; and in the image of Man created he him. And Man gave unto God a multitude of names, that he might be Lord over all the earth when it was suited to Man. And on the seven millionth day Man rested and did lean heavily on his God and saw that it was good. And Man became the God that he had created and with his miracles did rule over all the earth." - Ian Anderson
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tradcragrat
Trad climber
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So there is no such thing as climbing...just the abscence of gravity?
No such thing as a splitter crack...just the absence of rock there?
Or perhaps, no god, just the absence of evil?
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plund
Social climber
OD, MN
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Dingus, you devil you, are you quoting Scripture for your own purposes???
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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I refuse to post in this thread on the grounds that I may get into a philosophical discussion that takes too much time away from climbing.
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Brutus of Wyde
climber
Old Climbers' Home, Oakland CA
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As the cholesterolophile said,
"Get behind me statin!"
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Hey, what happens to my fist when I open my hand? I agree with DMT, that's one dumbass professor! He's dumb for saying that there is such a thing as cold, because anyone wth any knowledge of physics knows there is only heat. With evolution we have millions of pieces of evidence for it in spite of the fact that you can't "see" evolution happening. You can't "see" electromagnetism per se, but you can see it's effects and reproduce them every time. To somehow equate these things with faith/belief in God is not even close to compelling.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Come on, it's a serious but flimsy brew of BS rhetorical logic tricks to make right wing religious feel people both happy, and like they have a good argument to use.
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screelover
Mountain climber
Canuckistan
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I don't mind you folks talkin about god and sex and stuff.
So long as there's no dancin.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Sure there is such a thing as cold. It's biochemical reaction inside our bodies caused by the temperature dropping below some varying point. This biochemical reaction produces measurable affects, such as shivering.
"Cold" is just a word used to describe certain things. The fact that it may sometimes be used inapproriately from a thermodymanics point of view doesn't mean all definitions of the word are inappropriate. And it certainly doens't mean that there is no difference between faith based systems of belief and the scientific method.
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Mr. Spock
climber
Planet Vulcan
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Hot off the press (1.3 MB):
http://books.nap.edu/html/11876/SECbrochure.pdf
The main focus is on evolution but along the way it includes a nice summary of how science works.
Incidentally, the original post here did not attribute the source of the story, but it's been floating around in anonymous emails and on various web sites since at least early 2006.
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WBraun
climber
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In Heaven, he went to see God.
Well, .... how can he be dead?
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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I am a reformed micropaleontologist, I have clearly and unequivically seen evolution happen, it's recorded for all time. Ask your local micropaleontologist, and you can see it too.
-Doesn't mean you have to give up on god, if that works for you, and especialy if, you accept faith as evidence.
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WBraun
climber
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How can one give up God?
Impossible.
Even atheist can not give up God.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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If you want to elaborate, Werner, that would be good for all of us, I bet.
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cintune
climber
Penn's Woods
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"The simple believeth every word." - Proverbs 14:15
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malabarista
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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"God" and "Jesus" should be replaced with "Flying Spaghetti Monster" and "Bible" with "The Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster" in Jody's original post. Then it begins to make perfect sense!
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GDavis
Trad climber
SoCal
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Some people believe in a God.
Others believe you only got one shot on this rock.
If you only have one life to live, selfishness is the way to go. Lie, cheat, steal, whatever it takes to make your time the best, because its all you got, baby!
I'm a little more scared of a Godless world. Imagine what life would be like if 4 billion people (a guess, at least, probably more) didn't have saint hoochie coochie, or whatever coconut, to worship to and hope for something better after they dead.
Heeby Jeebies.
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Jingy
Social climber
Flatland, Ca
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Question - If God does not exist... what then?
Next subject.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jody - this is a very important issue to you, and so we see it again. I am not sure what you are searching for in this discussion in this forum but I will engage as I find the issue very important.
For those who don't know of the past history of posts on this subject you can do a search and find a vast literature on this on the STForum.
Also, for full disclosure, I am an atheist physicist , have been for most of my life... I don't agree with Werner that "Even atheist can not give up God."
But I will start my response with an interesting observation. John F. Nash won the 1994 Nobel Prize in Economics for his development of game theory applied to economics. Some of may have known that, some of you saw the movie "A Beautiful Mind" which was pretty good, and hopefully many of you read the excellent book by Sylvia Nasar "A Beautiful Mind" which inspired the movie (the book is infinitely more nuanced and more complete and is an excellent read).
From this we learn a painful fact about Nash that he was essentially insane, suffering from sever schizophrenia during the same time he was having deep mathematical insights that lead to his work which was awarded the prize. When we look at the person from our perspective from the outside we can see the different behavior, the brilliance of the mathematical thought, distinct from the paranoid, obsessive behavior of the schizophrenic.
Nash was asked about this, essentially, why didn't you know the difference between the two thoughts? His reply shows a level of introspection probably way beyond the capability of most people; he said that the thoughts came from the same place. From his point of view, he could not distinguish the validity of one thought from the other.
What does this have to do with God and Science?
Both of those concepts come from our thought, our mind. They are constructions of our thought, they are learned. God exists in all of us, even me, at least as an idea. Perhaps I contradict myself here and agree with Werner.
Of science, we know our ideas are provisional, that our ideas of what the physical universe is, and how it works, what it is composed of, the mathematical description of the universe, the logic of it... those are all ideas and we readily admit that they describe things as well as we are able to know them.
For science I have a way of testing whether or not my ideas on physical reality conform with what is in nature. I do this by observation and experimentation, by the application of the scientific method. I believe that this provides a separate, objective test of my scientific ideas. I don't just have to believe that, I can apply what I know to predict the outcome of other experiments or to explain observations. If what I predict is not confirmed, or I can show that I fail to be able to explain, then the thinking that lead me along is false.
I don't have an independent way of verifying my belief in my ideas about God. Those ideas, as all ideas are, can be beyond the natural... while ideas are the result of natural processes, they may have no correspondence to physical reality. They are not so constrained.
In this sense God can exist and science can be true.
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