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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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hey there all.... hmmmm, seems when i first stepped in here at the uniquely pleasant supertopo, it was "religion and politics" that were set-up before me, by kind folks, as being the causes of the worse "food fights known to man" , right here... :)
wellllllllllll, i will just tread lightly here, and pass-on through with just a tad of a note:
semms religion is very, very complex, difficult, and an extremely heavy burden to folks and their families...
seems being spiritual, is either wonderfully wonderful-good, or terribly terrible-bad...
seems being unspiritual, in either sense, is very, very limiting as to deep insight...
okayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy, you all.... am a tip-toeing-out right about now.... (god bless, to those that would like it and to any others, i will pocket-it away for you and keep it on hand, just in case some day you'd like it with a little smile and good wishes for a happy future--yet you are always cared for in prayer)...
okay, "save the food, guys", here i go... taking the tip-toe trail, one boot at a time... :)
love to all...
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Watusi
Social climber
Newport, OR
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I used to go to the service at The Institute of Mental Physics, in Josh...Which touted "Spirituality, without Religion" It was kinda cool...
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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I am sorry you are all part of my Nightmare.
God Juan
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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hey there... oh, say there, bruce, i think it is, i just saw this on your post, here it is in quote:
"Amazing love,
how can it be,
That Thou my God,
Shouldst die for me"
say, i do like that song... the other night, after thinking about my auntie, and such, i had a chance to hear it again... seems it was very speical, once again, right about then...
thanks for the share...
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Mustang
climber
From the wild, not the ranch
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 4, 2008 - 07:51pm PT
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Bruno, are we talking about religion or theology.
I understand most Christian religions are based upon theology, but don't you think that sometimes, religion is a corrupt, step-child of theology?
Dirt, cancer sucks, a close family member of mine, painfully, died from it. Those whom have not experienced it either first or second hand cannot understand the emotional trauma it creates along with the physical suffering.
Fvck them.
google 'essiac formula' and see how an old, ojibway native, herb formula has helped many. Personally, I'd give it a try before subscribing to American-pharma. If that didn't work, then, I might just let it do it's thing and screw the perpetrated, false hope sales of the current medical establishment. Healers, they are not.
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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God, I think not.
JDF
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Jennie
Trad climber
Idaho Falls
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What would most organized religions have to say about that scenario? Worlds would turn upside down I'm sure. How does organized, christianity explain the fossil remains of dinosaurs that scientifically, date back hundreds of millions of years before humans ever existed? That god put them there when he created the earth and heavens in seven days, just because?
Right,,,, I'm so sure.
You would be wrong if you assume all Christians believe the universe was created in seven literal earth days. Some interpret the Bible as completely literal, others believe it is highly metaphorical. I take the creation story in Genesis figuratively rather than literally, ie; interpreting "days" as epochs of time, much longer than earth days. Eve being created from Adam's rib, I take as figurative speech, rather than concrete.
Some insist on the literal in interpreting the Bible. I think that's a mistake. Modern humans seem less adept at understanding symbolism, than the ancients. (See The Forgotten Language by the philosopher Erich Fromm)
Christianity doesn't rise or fall on literal validity of the first chapters of Genesis, simply because the creation story was written in figurative language. Christianity is a belief system regarding an individuals transitive connection and relationship with his fellow creatures and God. In the New Testament it is presented as a choice, meaning you can opt out.
(My opinion and not necessarily that of your friendly neighborhood evangelical)
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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For 12 Steppers, the HP can be whatever the person chooses. I had a friend who came into the program an atheist, but man oh man, did he want to get sober. Here(AA) was his opportunity and he intended to take it, so when it came to the "Came to believe" and he had to have something to believe in, he chose a tiny plastic trinket he happened to have found on the street. It was a pig.
He didn't know how that pig could possibly make any difference in the world, but they" told him it didn't matter.
He talked to that pig, asked that pig for guidance and questioned that pig....religiously. This man is now 11 years sober, and he'll tell you that the pig was an important part of his early sobriety.
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Mustang
climber
From the wild, not the ranch
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 4, 2008 - 07:58pm PT
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"Christianity is a belief system regarding an individuals transitive connection and relationship with his fellow creatures and God. In the New Testament it is presented as a choice, meaning you can opt out."
Yes, you can, and then be ostracized, in one way or another, by the flock, for making that choice.
"Conform or be cast out" Geddy Lee, Rush
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WBraun
climber
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So Mustang?
What's your ultimate aim?
Can you see the target?
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Mustang
climber
From the wild, not the ranch
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 4, 2008 - 08:09pm PT
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Yea WB, a healthy discussion, infused with humor, seriousness, contempt and anger, on a very sensitive topic, that has had a major role in the direction of how man treats one another, e.g. war and politics.
Does that answer your question?
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WBraun
climber
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No
Even in the spiritual world there is humor, seriousness, contempt anger, war and politics.
But because there, in the spiritual world, those attributes are directly in relation to the Supreme lord in service, all those activities are blissful.
Where's here in the material world of duality and separation from the Supreme lord, they manifest temporary happiness and distress due to the souls false identification to the temporary material body that it resides in as a prisoner.
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cintune
climber
Penn's Woods
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People believe what they want to believe.
That is all.
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Mustang
climber
From the wild, not the ranch
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 4, 2008 - 08:25pm PT
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W, finally. I was waiting for you to say something I could barely understand, on the material plane, of course.
I suppose the message of the Supreme being is always there, always has been, and always will be. The problem I have with most 'religions' is the messenger. On the material plane, of course.
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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hey there mustang, just put a boot-toe in for a peek...
say, as to your note about "the messengers"---messengers must be "fruit tested" just like any other role that humans have here on this earth, in every and any job-line, too...
otherwise, you are throwing "caution to the wind" and lots of trouble "hits you in the face" on these stormy seas or dusty trails that we cross at times....
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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hey there wbraun... how you doing?
say, i would/will say such "aged wisdom there", as to your quote:
"they manifest temporary happiness and distress due to the souls false identification to the temporary material body"
but i wouldn't want that to be calling you "old" (insinuating what it all too often tends to mean to most unlearned folks these day)
so----will stand by the scenario of: "aged" , as it will hold true: skilled as to knowledge gleaned from "many a day" while putting it to use somehow...
keep seeking real stuff there, wbraun... good for the soul...
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rockermike
Mountain climber
Berkeley
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Hey JdF,
What and where is that picture from? Its beautiful. Who can be against religion if it produces such beautiful expressions?
Nice post Bruce Adams. Good to hear the voice of reason. The problem with "religion" is that so many people spout off about it (either for or against) when they don't know what the hell they are talking about.
Its like me trying to argue with Ed Hartouni about sub-atomic particles. I'd be a fool. And so are some opinionators here. But everyone is an expert on the subject of God. Even if they have never read a single book on theology.
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Brunosafari
Boulder climber
Redmond, OR
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I came back from dinner to check on this thread. Glad to respond:
Juan-you should quit painting at Stoney Point. But the colors are great.
Dirt- "is God the retard son of other gods?"
I'd put this great question in the catagory of Speculative Metaphysics. One could say there seems to be some evidence of God being retarded: Why does he permit innocent suffering, or why do the wicked prosper, or why do all humans seem to possess divided, often hypocritical natures? But the 'God as retard' proposition does not seem to match up to the gravity of the questions, for lack of evidence.
On the other hand, the grandeur and complexity of creation, seems to argue against the retard idea. And the life and teachings of the Carpenter, including the miracles, fulfilled messianic prophesies, and especially the Resurrection, deliver confirming, evidential weight. Yet my observation is that arguments are only part of the quest for eternal life.
May you keep asking the questions and seeking life and the answers which fulfill the admonition to "Love God with our heart, soul, mind and strength." As you battle cancer, I hope a quest will bring you to the cross, where dwells the answer and courage you will need. I say, in the utmost respect, the ground on which Dirt stands is Holy Ground.
Neebee- You sound like an endearing, gentle soul. Same with Tobin Sorenson. Fun to read your first post on this thread outloud: required.
Mustang: Cheers for anybody seeking to clarify terms of mataphysics! I think of the term "religion" in the most general sense, but the Carlin U tube clearly was referring to Christianity, or rather a kind of fallacious straw-man Christianity, a convenient punching bag Christianity, an errant concept of Christianity.
Mark Twain was another humorist who took on the church and cultural hypocricies of his day, in such masterpieces as "Huckleberry Finn" and "The War Prayer." But I think he understood the problem had more to do with the shallowness of humans rather than the ideals of New Testament Christianity. In fact, the moral footing against U.S. Slavery practices and unwarranted violence in the name of God is rightly, rooted int he Scriptures as well as the conscience.
Theology and Philosophy are terms often used interchangably. Theology (Gk. Theos-logos) means, "reasoned discourse about God." Philosophy means "love of wisdom." "Religion" is such a broad term, we should specify our meaning in its use. All this to say, "yes," religions in their formal sense, are defined (and possibly corrupted) by their theologies and resultant practices, even those which claim to be anti-rational, supra-rational, or which are blatantly animistic.
Theology is like our asses. Some are useful, some lazy, some need more beef, but everybody has one. May yours be useful!
Thanks again!
Bruce
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Dirt- "is God the retard son of other gods?"
"I'd put this great question in the catagory of Speculative Metaphysics. One could say there seems to be some evidence of God being retarded: Why does he permit innocent suffering, or why do the wicked prosper, or why do all humans seem to possess divided, often hypocritical natures?"
Actually the retarded humans I have known are not like this at all. they do not willingly permit innocent suffereing, nor do they prefer that the wicked prosper. So you have two problems. One, if god is retarded, he didn't really create us in his image, like he claims. Two, you can't even come close to knowing what a retarded god would be like. So, your questions about innocent suffering and the wicked prospering don't really make sense. Even a retarded god is still a god. The real question is, what will his parents do when they get home and see what a mess he has made out of this place and the people in it?
"But the 'God as retard' proposition does not seem to match up to the gravity of the questons, for lack of evidence."
God as the retarded son of other gods as a proposition suffers from the same lack of evidence as any other assumptions about god do, so it is on equal footing with any other discussion about god.
"On the other hand, the grandeur and complexity of creation, seems to argue against the retard idea."
Again, how can you say that? Even a retarded god is still a god you know.
" And the life and teachings of the Carpenter, including the miracles, fulfilled messianic prophesies, and especially the Resurrection, deliver confirming, evidential weight."
Yes, about as much evidential weight as greek mythology or the easter bunny.
"Yet my observation is that arguments are only part of the quest for eternal life."
Well you got me there. It's just so human to not be happy with what we've got and to wish for something else, even if it does not exist.
Just how close to finding out about eternity have you been, may I ask? I've been really, really close, and frankly, I didn't see anything there.
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