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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Dec 12, 2007 - 12:16pm PT
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What's an X-file ?
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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Dec 12, 2007 - 12:17pm PT
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I always love it when someone decides to beat on this dead horse and start a thread like this.
This subject makes the American Left look like the dumbshits that they are.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Dec 12, 2007 - 12:23pm PT
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k-man wrote:
But instead of answering the questions, smokescreens are put
in place. Certainly makes me wonder. Why the smokescreens?
Uhh, 'cause it's a conspiiiiirrracy, man!!
(speaking of smokescreens, smoke me out, bro!)
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 12, 2007 - 12:56pm PT
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I'm just saying the 9-11 commission report was a whitewash and there is plenty of evidence available to show that the government did plenty to shut down investigations and lines of inquiry.
Lois, read "Day of Deceit" There is very good evidence to question whether the Government tried to provoke an attack from Japan to enter the war. The fact is that the public at the time didn't want to get into WW2.
http://tinyurl.com/2h4sec
We went into two wars due to 9-11, the neocons DID want an attack to happen and it should be obvious from their planning document well in circulation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_for_the_New_American_Century
In their writings, the neocons call for invading Iraq (this is way before 9-11) and a variety of other radical ideas but lament that there wouldn't be public support for it without a catalyzing event.
"Section V of Rebuilding America's Defenses, entitled "Creating Tomorrow's Dominant Force", includes the sentence: "Further, the process of transformation, even if it brings revolutionary change, is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event––like a new Pearl Harbor" (51).[22]"
For those who think the government wouldn't allow our own people to be killed in order to have the wars they want, I have two things to say:
First, From
http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=92662
"In the early 1960s, America's top military leaders reportedly drafted plans to kill innocent people and commit acts of terrorism in U.S. cities to create public support for a war against Cuba.
Code named Operation Northwoods, the plans reportedly included the possible assassination of Cuban émigrés, sinking boats of Cuban refugees on the high seas, hijacking planes, blowing up a U.S. ship, and even orchestrating violent terrorism in U.S. cities.
The plans were developed as ways to trick the American public and the international community into supporting a war to oust Cuba's then new leader, communist Fidel Castro.
America's top military brass even contemplated causing U.S. military casualties, writing: "We could blow up a U.S. ship in Guantanamo Bay and blame Cuba," and, "casualty lists in U.S. newspapers would cause a helpful wave of national indignation."
Second, anybody whose paying attention to the increasing evidence coming out should be aware that our government totally knew that Iraq had nothing to do with 9-11 and didn't have WMDs.
THERE WAS A CONSPIRACY TO INVADE IRAQ AND TO MAKE EXCUSES TO DO SO.
Of course, the government, even Dems, don't want to investigate this matter and prosecute because we're still there and everyone was guilty of believing the lies. Why make your country guilty of something so dark and become internationally liable like Germany was after WW1?
Still, many thousands and thousands of US and Iraqis have died because lies and 9-11 hysteria was used to justify an invasion to control Oil and serve Israel. That should be, if anything, a worse crime than 9-11 and the evidence is all there.
So don't tell me the government can't or doesn't conspire cause we just spent about a trillion because they do.
Peace
Karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 12, 2007 - 12:59pm PT
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Something I've posted in other threads on 9-11 is something we should all ask ourselves.
=
...Also for the one who says that things don't remain hidden but come out in history, answer me this
Who (exactly with some evidence) burned the German Reichstag (parlement) building that helped Hitler consolidate power? This was the 9-11 type event that was just as important in world history as 9-11. Who really did it? Who did the German people think did it at the time?
THE US GOVERNMENT HAS ACTUALLY PLANNED TERRORIST ATTACKS AGAINST THE US. It wasn't during a GOP administration either. Sh#t happens. check out
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/northwoods.html
"Code named Operation Northwoods, the plan, which had the written approval of the Chairman and every member of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, called for innocent people to be shot on American streets; for boats carrying refugees fleeing Cuba to be sunk on the high seas; for a wave of violent terrorism to be launched in Washington, D.C., Miami, and elsewhere. People would be framed for bombings they did not commit; planes would be hijacked. Using phony evidence, all of it would be blamed on Castro, thus giving Lemnitzer and his cabal the excuse, as well as the public and international backing, they needed to launch their war."
Let say that Kennedy didn't 86 the plan which was signed off on by the whole Joint Chiefs, and a round of violent terrorist attacks were pulled off by the Kennedy Government on Americans.
This very nearly happened . Ask yourself this question
"Would I have questioned the evidence that it was Kennedy and not Castro killing Americans or just assumed that such a thing was unthinkable?"
We believe what we want to believe. If something is too far out of our worldview and experience, our mind glances right over it.
If you can at least answer my question
"Would I have questioned the evidence that it was Kennedy and not Castro killing Americans or just assumed that such a thing was unthinkable?"
You will at least prove your mind can go there
peace
karl
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dirtbag
climber
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Dec 12, 2007 - 01:06pm PT
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Karl,
That incident never happened. There is a big difference between a few people planning something like that and actually mobilizing several bureaucracies to do it, then having all of them STFU about killing their own people afterwards.
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TradIsGood
Recently unshackled climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Dec 12, 2007 - 01:07pm PT
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So much for sticking to the topic of money!
Karl=LEB?
But I am convinced. I will register as a Democrat and vote for Hilary in the primaries.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 12, 2007 - 01:22pm PT
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"Karl,
That incident never happened. There is a big difference between a few people planning something like that and actually mobilizing several bureaucracies to do it, then having all of them STFU about killing their own people afterwards."
The incident was very close to happening. People STFU all the time.
Were the Kennedy's and MLK all really killed by lone gunmen with no conspiracy involved? I doubt it.
How many of you know there was a business plan that went VERY FAR in order to overthrow FDR? The public didn't know or accept it for years. The conspirators weren't talking. It was finally PROVEN in 1967 and yet we still don't know much or talk about it.
Everybody should read this
http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/Coup.htm
"In the summer of 1933, shortly after Roosevelt's "First 100 Days," America's richest businessmen were in a panic. It was clear that Roosevelt intended to conduct a massive redistribution of wealth from the rich to the poor. Roosevelt had to be stopped at all costs.
The answer was a military coup. It was to be secretly financed and organized by leading officers of the Morgan and Du Pont empires. .....The plotters attempted to recruit General Smedley Butler to lead the coup. They selected him because he was a war hero who was popular with the troops. The plotters felt his good reputation was important to make the troops feel confident that they were doing the right thing by overthrowing a democratically elected president. However, this was a mistake: Butler was popular with the troops because he identified with them. That is, he was a man of the people, not the elite. When the plotters approached General Butler with their proposal to lead the coup, he pretended to go along with the plan at first, secretly deciding to betray it to Congress at the right moment.
What the businessmen proposed was dramatic: they wanted General Butler to deliver an ultimatum to Roosevelt. Roosevelt would pretend to become sick and incapacitated from his polio, and allow a newly created cabinet officer, a "Secretary of General Affairs," to run things in his stead. The secretary, of course, would be carrying out the orders of Wall Street. If Roosevelt refused, then General Butler would force him out with an army of 500,000 war veterans from the American Legion. But MacGuire assured Butler the cover story would work:
"You know the American people will swallow that. We have got the newspapers. We will start a campaign that the President's health is failing. Everyone can tell that by looking at him, and the dumb American people will fall for it in a second…"
The businessmen also promised that money was no object: Clark told Butler that he would spend half his $60 million fortune to save the other half......The plot fell apart when Butler went public. The general revealed the details of the coup before the McCormack-Dickstein Committee, which would later become the notorious House Un-American Activities Committee. (In the 50s, this committee would destroy the lives of hundreds of innocent Americans with its communist witch hunts.) The Committee heard the testimony of Butler and French, but failed to call in any of the coup plotters for questioning, other than MacGuire. In fact, the Committee whitewashed the public version of its final report, deleting the names of powerful businessmen whose reputations they sought to protect. The most likely reason for this response is that Wall Street had undue influence in Congress also. Even more alarming, the elite-controlled media failed to pick up on the story, and even today the incident remains little known. The elite managed to spin the story as nothing more than the rumors and hearsay of Butler and French, even though Butler was a Quaker of unimpeachable honesty and integrity. Butler, appalled by the cover-up, went on national radio to denounce it, but with little success.
Butler was not vindicated until 1967, when journalist John Spivak uncovered the Committee's internal, secret report. It clearly confirmed Butler's story.....
Thinking we have a transparent government or a open media is a mistake
Peace
Karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 12, 2007 - 01:26pm PT
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Lois, I'm not "IN" to any of this stuff.
I hate that it wastes my time and energy. I'm only keeping the alarm sounded as a public service because we have such a dangerous government in place but most people don't know or care because they don' t have time to dig under the surface.
This country is hosed. I'm going to give up on politics soon and let the ship sink but I'm going to do my duty to warm people first. After the 2008 elections, it may be too late to change much
Peace
Karl
Edit
Here's more money trail and stonewallling evidence
http://www.brasschecktv.com/page/189.html
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dirtbag
climber
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Dec 12, 2007 - 01:32pm PT
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Again Karl, nice plan, but notice how it never actually happened?
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Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
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Dec 12, 2007 - 01:53pm PT
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good job Karl.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 13, 2007 - 02:36am PT
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Dirtbag wrote
"Again Karl, nice plan, but notice how it never actually happened? "
The Iraq war happened. The gulf of Tonkin happened. The Bay of Pigs happened. JFK, RFK, and MLK were all shot.
Now you might try to defend a few of those incidents above but anybody who believes they were all honest and above board is a fool. It was only the actions of one or two people that prevented Operation Northwoods and the military Coup against FDR.
It's worth noting that, if you are rich enough, you can fully attempt to overthrow the government by non-democratic, illegal mean, and you won't be prosecuted and it will be swept under the rug. I think I've proved that above and yet folks continue to want to believe everything is fine and dandy in this country's democracy.
Peace
Karl
again, from above
"The plot fell apart when Butler went public. The general revealed the details of the coup before the McCormack-Dickstein Committee, which would later become the notorious House Un-American Activities Committee. (In the 50s, this committee would destroy the lives of hundreds of innocent Americans with its communist witch hunts.) The Committee heard the testimony of Butler and French, but failed to call in any of the coup plotters for questioning, other than MacGuire. In fact, the Committee whitewashed the public version of its final report, deleting the names of powerful businessmen whose reputations they sought to protect. The most likely reason for this response is that Wall Street had undue influence in Congress also. Even more alarming, the elite-controlled media failed to pick up on the story, and even today the incident remains little known. The elite managed to spin the story as nothing more than the rumors and hearsay of Butler and French, even though Butler was a Quaker of unimpeachable honesty and integrity."
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turd
climber
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Dec 13, 2007 - 02:41am PT
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Nobody has answered Jody's question yet.
Assuming it's true, what are all of you doing about it?
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Degaine
climber
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Dec 13, 2007 - 05:03am PT
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Fattrad wrote : Us neocons just recognize that we are in a "Clash of Civilizations"
You neo-cons wouldn’t recognize a pile of dog sh#t if you stepped in it.
Turd,
For starters I don't have my head buried in the sand like Jody.
But he seems to like it there, so who am I to tell him to do otherwise.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 22, 2007 - 01:27am PT
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Interesting tidbit, a former Italian President claims the world's intel agencies believe 9-11 was an inside job. I'm not saying it was, but I am saying we haven't got nearly the honest truth about it.
http://prisonplanet.com/articles/december2007/120407_common_knowledge.htm
"Former Italian President and the man who revealed the existence of Operation Gladio Francesco Cossiga has gone public on 9/11, telling Italy's most respected newspaper that the attacks were run by the CIA and Mossad and that this was common knowledge amongst global intelligence agencies.
Cossiga was elected President of the Italian Senate in July 1983 before winning a landslide 1985 election to become President of the country in 1985.
Cossiga gained respect from opposition parties as one of a rare breed - an honest politician - and led the country for seven years until April 1992.
Cossiga's tendency to be outspoken upset the Italian political establishment and he was forced to resign after revealing the existence of, and his part in setting up, Operation Gladio - a rogue intelligence network under NATO auspices that carried out bombings across Europe in the 60's, 70's and 80's......."
Check this out....Info on the 9-11 war games. This is such a big part of the 9-11 story whether you believe in a conspiracy or not. Why doesn't anybody talk about this?
http://www.opednews.com/articles/genera_george_w_071220_the_9_2f11_war_games.htm
"On the very morning of 9/11/01, five war games and terror drills were being conducted by several U.S. defense agencies, including one "live fly" exercise using REAL planes. Then-Acting Head of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Air Force General Richard B. Myers, admitted to 4 of the war games in congressional testimony -- see transcript here or video here (6 minutes and 12 seconds into the video).
Norad had run drills for several years of planes being used as weapons against the World Trade Center and other U.S. high-profile buildings, and "numerous types of civilian and military aircraft were used as mock hijacked aircraft". In other words, drills using REAL AIRCRAFT simulating terrorist attacks crashing jets into buildings, including the twin towers, were run. See also official military website showing 2000 military drill, using miniatures, involving a plane crashing into the Pentagon...."
Peace
Karl
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fairweather
Mountain climber
Roseville, CA
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Dec 22, 2007 - 02:05am PT
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Vince Foster's name can be heard on the Beatles White Album when played backwards.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 22, 2007 - 02:18am PT
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Come on Fairweather, don't you think it's the slightest bit interesting that the former president of one of our alies says 9-11 was an inside job? At least it should be remarkable if you totally don't believe it to think that these thoughts aren't just for tin foil hat types but also for leaders who command armies and dispatch spies themselves.
To make a glib remark about it is just saying "Don't pay any attention to the man behind the curtain, everything is fine and people who question the party line are silly deluded fools"
I have to find that attitude childish and disrespectful (sentence inserted in place of original put-down that I thought better of)
But thanks for bumping my thread!
peace
Karl
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paganmonkeyboy
climber
mars...it's near nevada...
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Dec 22, 2007 - 10:36am PT
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Woody, Chaz etc -
I feel you do a great disservice to the men and women killed on that day by failing to ask pointed questions about major holes in the accepted and promoted story of the events as they have been explained.
Sticking with just the known facts, and not engaging in any idle speculation, there are more than enough talking points to merit a continued investigation into the events of that day. Dismissing any and all questioners as paranoid and CT crackpots only promotes your own arrogance, while many others feel that there is a deeper truth that should be exposed. Considering the path the country has gone down since the event (Osama Who ? I didn't know he was in Iraq...) and the buckets of money being made by a select few that are directly tied to the people in charge of national policy, I think Karl's questions are particularly relevant.
I find your blind trust in the powers that be to be more indicative of a fear of the implications of the alternatives, rather than an actual intellectual position based on careful scrutiny of all facts.
The victims of this deserve Much Much more. They deserve the truth.
-Tom
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paganmonkeyboy
climber
mars...it's near nevada...
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Dec 22, 2007 - 11:53am PT
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LEB - Using that same logic we would never see repeals of convictions that are 20+ years old based on new evidence. I am hearing you say that since there is no proof, there must not be any...
So what was the official stance of the people that wrote the 9 11 report ? I seem to recall they pointed out they were stonewalled and mislead on a regular basis, but this is not reported on as much as the accepted results of the study - is this correct ?
http://www.911independentcommission.org/questions.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9/11_Commission_Report
It has been less than a decade, and there is still a stranglehold on information coming from this administration - the outing of American Agent Plame during War (Treason ?), EPA and Ground Zero breath-ability, Who gave the order to ship nukes across the country this past year - if we can't get any answers to even these questions, are you saying there must not be anything there as well to examine ?
I find your argument, while raising a valid point, does not pass muster when examined with a full understanding of the nature of current events and information dissemination in the modern world.
How many times have you seen any reporting on the 5 foreign agents filming the collapse of the towers and dancing around, holding up lighters and celebrating ? This is an accepted FACT of the events of 9 11 - have you even heard of it ?
Tom
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 22, 2007 - 12:39pm PT
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"All of "this" and yet STILL no definitive "proof" comes to light. How long before the cries begin to ring hollow? "
What constitutes "Proof" for you Lois? There is proof that the Bush team conspired to put us in Iraq based on false info and lies and yet the public doesn't really know and congress refuses to hold them accountable? How do you know the same isn't true of 9-11? It would cause a national disgrace and upheaval.
SImilarly, you'll notice that there WAS total proof that FDR was the subject of a very, very serious attempted Military coup but you probably never heard of it. It was even investigated and found to be true but the folks in power decided not to rock the boat of the rich and powerful.
You're "it's not proven, so it must be false" the same argument folks use against the existence of God or Soul, is lame.
The party line explanation of 9-11 is DEMONSTRABLY false. All I'm saying is we need to actually investigate and get the real answers. What's the problem with that?
Peace
Karl
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