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Festus
Mountain climber
Enron by the Sea
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Nov 20, 2007 - 08:17pm PT
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Bler, far more people hike (or ride a mule) to the bottom of Grand Canyon than climb The Nose, but if you compare the numbers on a single, less-used rim to river route with those on The Nose, then you've got a pretty fair comparison--in terms of numbers anyway.
But let's go back to the original question here: Why can't The Nose ledges be as clean as much more frequently used Grand Canyon campsites? Anyone?
edit: Jstan, Grand Canyon won't flood again until Glen Canyon Dam collapses.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Nov 20, 2007 - 09:01pm PT
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Maybe if there was some easier way to haul the stuff up. Some sort of pulley-and-ratchet system that climbers could utilize. Oh wai....
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Nov 20, 2007 - 09:46pm PT
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It comes back to the phrase, " More access means more a$$holes.".
Sure when you make everyone get a permit and go on guided trips and the guide can be held accountable, there will be less trash, cause that's actually a controlled access deal. And there are consequences for screwing up.
The thing that has ruined several places in the south is building a road that lets just about anyone get close to the rock. Not only do more people come, and many are people who don't climb but just want the view off the top, or to party, or to see how far they can throw a beer bottle off the top, But they bring more crap with them.
The places that see few people usually have very little trash.
SO, if you limit access by any way you choose, permits, difficult hike in, or whatever, that will help.
Otherwise, you have to set an example, talk to people, and pick up a LOT of trash. Establishing an ethic takes a LONG time, and in areas where the current ethic is to trash the place, it will take even longer.
Consequences for trashing the place also help some.
I think that placing a few heads on pikes with a sign that says, "Leave trash, lose your head", in the climbing area you want to improve would help.
When you relocate those Koreans to Jtree, to handle the dog problem, you could get some head hunters from New Guinea as well, maybe, as long as they understand that open season is only on litterbugs.
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bobinc
Trad climber
Portland, Or
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Nov 21, 2007 - 12:59pm PT
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We took off a private trip in June of this year. It was my 2nd time down on a private and 4th overall. Our shuttle driver was someone who had run the Green and Colorado since the mid 50s. His comment was that the beaches and corridor are much cleaner now than back then (and this even when there were only a handful of people in the canyon).
Others have explained most of why the canyon is so clean (outfitters and private boaters are both very aware of the value of the resource, etc) but something else to consider is that the rafting trip is relatively luxurious compared to the average big wall ascent. Not to let folks on the Big STone off the hook but there it is necessary to carry everything UP rather than just load it on the boat and float to the takeout.
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Festus
Mountain climber
Enron by the Sea
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Nov 21, 2007 - 01:09pm PT
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You're right, eKat, but those aren't real floods, in the pre-dam sense, though they have clearly not been the complete failures that Piton Ron expressed. In their aftermath you could see that beaches had gotten bigger...but nowhere near what many of them were like when I first started hiking down there in the early 80s. My guess would be that you'd have to have a much, much bigger dam release to scour the near shoreline of the vegetation (tammies, etc.) and create the huge, if shifting, beaches of old--not that that is necessarily the goal. But, I couldn't agree more about the tremendous job the guides and outfitters do in conjunction with the park service. Certainly the dollars at stake made regulations easier to enforce, but the concern/care of plenty of guides and river runners also had a lot to do with it...not to mention the lasting influence of Martin Litton, Dave Brower and friends.
I, too, would love to hear from someone who knows the details, science, and overall effectiveness of the artificial flooding, future plans for it, etc.
edit: Bobinc, it's true that floating trips have a far, far easier means of removing garbage, etc., but there are more than a few beaches in GC used almost exclusively by backpackers. I can't speak to the most used 'cuz I've never been there (Phantom Ranch area) but the rest of them--which probably see similar numbers to a popular El Cap route--remain pristine. In fairness, you are encouraged to pee in the wet sand near the waterline, and bury your feces far from the river in non-sand earth (you only have to pack out the TP) which would be prodigious feats from Heart Ledge, but...
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TradIsGood
Half fast climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Nov 21, 2007 - 01:40pm PT
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Send that much water off the top of El Cap and it will be way cleaner even than Grand Canyon in no time!
Except maybe in the winter.
:-)
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BadInfluence
Mountain climber
Dak side
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Nov 21, 2007 - 01:44pm PT
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Did you test the water?
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bobinc
Trad climber
Portland, Or
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Nov 21, 2007 - 01:58pm PT
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That's a good point, Festus (about backpackers). I'm unsure of the numbers but there are certainly 000s of folks who make it to the river and stay overnight. In looking around some of those campsites, they seem very clean. I'm unsure what the NPS does as far as backpacker ed goes (and can't recall what we were told in '85, last time I hiked overnight vs boated the GC). My guess is some of the cleanup occurs via boaters; in fact, the newest brochure given to private boaters encourages asking backpackers if they have any trash that could be taken out on a raft.
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Festus
Mountain climber
Enron by the Sea
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Nov 21, 2007 - 02:46pm PT
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I can't speak for the more crowded areas (Hermit, Kaibab and Bright Angel trails--which "house" the overwhelming majority of GC backpackers) because I avoid 'em, and I can only speak for myself and those I've hiked with and run into down there, but I've never encountered a beach or campsite littered by backpackers. Now whether or not every one of those people follows each and every rule spelled out in detail on your hiking permit, I can't know for sure, but I suspect they do, for the same reasons we do. To haul forty or fifty pounds all the way down there (and back), only to arrive at a trashed beach would be beyond depressing. We've got the same vested interest that river guides have--we want to keep coming back...to a place that's worth coming back to.
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E.L. "One"
Big Wall climber
Lancaster, California
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Nov 21, 2007 - 07:58pm PT
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What brother Festus said !!! But Jaysus Festus work on the tan !!
Cracko
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Festus
Mountain climber
Enron by the Sea
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Nov 21, 2007 - 08:11pm PT
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Hey, dammit, that isn't me in that photo, it's DiBernardo! I'm even whiter!! (As seen below, while testing to see if the AAC's new rescue service could be accessed using your torso as a signal mirror)
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Festus
Mountain climber
Enron by the Sea
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Nov 21, 2007 - 08:49pm PT
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Maybe what the climbing community needs is their own Jose Canseco to write a self-serving book that at least serves to out the sh#tbaggers, etc. Then you could have name climbers appear before congress saying they weren't there to talk about the past, suddenly forget how to speak English, shake a resolute finger in the camera and state they have never, ever, sh#tbagged, etc. Mitchell is about done with his baseball investigation, maybe he'll tackle El Cap ledges next.
I've been up a few classic (historically speaking) if easy routes, like East Face of Whitney, Mt. Sill (okay, via the descent route) and the Durrance on Symmetry Spire (and, yeah, that's pretty much my complete resume). Since I strictly followed on each of them and have never been inspired to lead anything, I'm not really a climber, but it was absolutely awe inspiring to ascend those routes--a powerful combination of the scenery and the knowledge of (and appreciation for) those who pioneered the ways up 'em. So for me, and for the reasons just stated, El Cap Tree would be the climb of a lifetime. To sit up there actually on El Cap, as embarrassingly corny as that reads, would bring a summit euphoria I could (and would) tap forever, fused for me with my childhood memories of being in the valley and actually hearing Harding's hammer on the first ascent. I could follow to El Cap Tree (if I can talk my brother into leading it) though anything beyond that is simply never going to happen. But if I'm ever fortunate enough to get there, only to find trash, sh#t or urine, well, f#ck 'em, I consider myself ten times the climber of some prick who can free 5.12 but thinks hurling his shitbags is okay.
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Nov 21, 2007 - 08:56pm PT
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Forget about what high profile climbers are tossing poop bags...Which high profile climbers are providing examples of "Keeping Clean?"
I know that many top climbers really do care, and many of them make the same efforts as everyone else, in picking up litter on approaches and such. But it gets little to no publicity.
Perhaps the magazine editors might consider adding the aspect of keeping clean in their editorials and interviews.
Perhaps gear manufacturers could find a way to highlight the aspect in their photo shoots.
Perhaps the Access Fund could host an annual award to some climber or group who goes above and beyond the call, and use that to promote the issue.
Perhaps photogs and videographers can do segments on keeping clean, and add them to their galleries, as a form of public service.
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tenesmus
Trad climber
slc
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Nov 21, 2007 - 10:13pm PT
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" Penneslyenvy,
Bullwhipped? Potentially the owners of the companies are threatened by the park service, but the guides, for the most part, take great pride in keeping the place clean. Sure I've bullwhipped a few littering clients but that is just my personality."
I've done that a few times. And my pockets constantly had trash of just about every kind in them...
"You are going to have a great time on the Grand. Remember what I said about Crystal?
Prod."
You told 'em to go LEFT didn't right? Gotta go left if you want to really say you ran Crystal. Its a crazy place to be.
A good friend of mine was a river ranger after he was a boatman and he really got off on tagging private AND commercial boaters for stealing rocks or leaving trash on a beach. Hell HE was the guy who told me to throw the leftover spaghetti into the "Back Cooler". You know, the one way back behind the boats. Not too funny when a guy catches a trout with an engorged, noodle filled stomach.
So, the only way climbing could clean up as well as the grand would be to have a ranger hovering and no one wants that. But I give my all for cleaning up.
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Scrunch
Trad climber
Provo, Ut
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Nov 23, 2007 - 05:42pm PT
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It seems that the problem isn't generally the lifestyle user... the type of people who identify themselves as "climbers" because they care about their crags. I've noticed the trend of "weekend warriors" who practice a number of different sports when their jobs and families allow who cause a number of different problems, from litter to top-roping through the chains.
There are, of course, exceptions. However, I'd be interested to know if ledges that required a high standard of free or aid climbing (5.12 or A3, for example) had the same trash problems.
The perfect counterpoint to my argument is Pipe Dream Cave in Maple Canyon, which an a cesspool, and most of the climbs there are hard.
Despite this, I believe the way to adjust these problems is to simple let people know how you feel about it. I might be a jerk, but if someone litters in front me, I explain that I don't appreciate their actions. I also mention the possible ramifications of their conduct, and suggest they have more respect for a high use area. Sometimes I follow them back to the parking lot and let the air out of their tires. (just kidding)
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jstan
climber
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Nov 23, 2007 - 06:13pm PT
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Happie:
I know it is counterintuitive but it seemed to me it is more important that "low profile" climbers are visibly working to protect our resources. In the 70's when we walked down the carriage road every few hundred feet you would see climbers of all sorts policing the carriage road. The impact was remarkable. People of all persuasions were out in front leading us.
It may be a symptom of the times but we all seem to look to high level leaders to make things happen. Unfortunately high level or "High profile" leaders sometimes are looking primarily for the things that will raise their profile. Not always, but sometimes. Being seen grunging around in a ditch does not necessarily elevate a person. It feels very good though being in a ditch just because one is unwilling to put up with this any longer. I find that a very good feeling.
Cheers,
John
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Nov 23, 2007 - 06:27pm PT
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John - I think something must have changed then.... The last 3 years I've been helping at the Gunks and though almost every single person who walks by as we do the work says "thanks" or offers an embarrassed apology/excuse for not having helped, they don't tend to show up at a later point to lend a hand.....
I have actually gotten some back-handed compliments by people, for my help. As if I'm trying to kiss someone's ass or get some perk or something. And people have said "Well, she lives in New Paltz(I don't) and that's why she can give up the Sunday climbing."
Some people seem to have the idea, at least at the Gunks, that because they pay a fee for the access, that money is, or should be, going to pay for the trail maintenance.
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