JTree - Leave your dog at home

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Mtnmun

Trad climber

Top of the Mountain Mun

Nov 18, 2007 - 11:12pm PT

Throw another dog on the fire
shlap another schnake on the grill

The dogs are not the problem,
it's the clueless owners. Morons should
not own dogs. Dogs are a big responsability and a liability.

If a dog is not 100% socially adjusted with humans and other dogs, leave them home.

The coyote's will cull them if you do not take responsibility. We were hoping one particular yippy dog would attract the coyote's in Jumbo rocks.

TGT

Social climber

So Cal

Nov 18, 2007 - 11:15pm PT

We were hoping one particular yippy dog would attract the coyote's in Jumbo rocks.

Last time I was there,

he did!

ionlyski

Trad climber

Kalispell, Montana

Nov 18, 2007 - 11:30pm PT

One should have a choice, when climbing, whether or not he or she wants to be around dogs. I climb in the national parks often to escape the cragging scene and the dogs. When you take your dog to the national parks in violation of the regs, you take that choice away from me. If I'm in more of a social mood, I go to the social crags, which I then know, will include dogs.

Arne Boveng

Matt

Trad climber

primordial soup

Nov 19, 2007 - 12:41am PT

"Any behavior by climbers that breaks the rules gives the rest of us a bad name and adversely impacts access generally, even if it only means that some pumped-up wannabe cowboy ranger identifies climbers with rule-breakers. Surely y'all are mature enough to see that?. Once in while, no big deal, but we absolutely must self-police. And Matt, honestly, there is a quite a big difference between an unleashed dog running around and a pipe being passed around. Yes they both break the rules, but one you can't exactly be discrete about"

i disagree.

climbers get harrassed more than other groups because the LEOs anticipate we are likely to be using illegal substances. if we do not have a dog, there is no reason to search our car to see if they can find a dog...

i have a science degree (not that i am all that smart) and i fail to understand how dogs at the base of cliffs are any more disruptive than all the pack animals the NPS allows- in fact most will admit the same and tell you it's because horses have greater political clout than dogs.

dogs don't wreck the environment, people do.

if ya'll were so damn interested in the 5 feet of dirt that is up against the rock, you'd be clammering on about all the bouldering pads, rope bags, backpacks and foot traffic, and not the extra canines. outlaw the RV's and trailers more than twice the weight of a full size sedan, eliminate all those un-recycleable coleman gas canisters that get piled up by the recycleable receptacles, enforce the wood gatherithing restrictions, put a CA redemption value on cigarette butts, make the cost of access to national parks dependent on real-time demand (charge more to enter when it gets crowded), and require visitors to bring re-fillable water bottles and coffee cups (sell coffe and make water available but do not make land-fill cups available), and i will never take a dog to the craggs again, never. untill then, i'll just risk a ticket and a lecture. i will be sure to try and be highly considerate of others' experiences at the same time, but people who are disinterested in mitigating the many obvious impacts of al users are wasting their time if they direct their energy toward my impacts.

Jaybro

Social climber

The West

Nov 19, 2007 - 12:57am PT

nah, Matt they just don't like to be around that, that they don't understand... How can so many people not 'GET' dogs?

Mighty Hiker

Social climber

Vancouver, B.C.

Nov 19, 2007 - 01:00am PT

Matt, I agree - there's a sh#t load of things we could all do to reduce our impacts on the environment, both at home and at the cliffs. (Excuse the expression.) And too many don't even bother to think about it, let alone act on it.

Whether dogs are the most significant impact, or one most needing management, is beyond my knowledge. Part of the problem is that they undeniably have impacts on both human and natural environments, they're easily identified, and it's not necessary to have them so as to enjoy a protected area. The guy by himself in the gas guzzler, the person who poops by the river, the cigarette butt flicker who starts a grass fire, and many others have significant impacts. But it's virtually impossible to compel better behaviour from them, even if those activities were illegal or unnecessary. And many such activities are legal if not tolerated if not accepted.

Conspicuousness, as you observe, is itself not a wise strategy. I've always found that lying low, being polite, and avoiding obtrusive behaviour were helpful strategies.

Chaz

Trad climber

So. Cal.

Nov 19, 2007 - 01:03am PT

Khanom writes:

"Chaz, Matt, etc: Are you guys really unaware of the simple fact that:
Coyote: Wild animal, native.
Dog: Domestic, DOES NOT BELONG IN THE DESERT."

I'd buy that logic, IF it were applied consistently.

Are pack horses native? Or are horses domestic?

I'd be happy if dogs and horses were allowed access/restricted to the same places.

The fact that horses and dogs are treated differently, for no good reason, is discrimination, plain and simple.

Us dog owners are the new niggers, as far as the NPS is concerned.

Mighty Hiker

Social climber

Vancouver, B.C.

Nov 19, 2007 - 01:13am PT

Chaz, I believe the official line is that dogs frighten and harass wildlife, and that horses and mules don't. Sounds plausible, but there does seem a lot of blindness to the other impacts of equines, or "historical" pretexts to excuse them.

Matt

Trad climber

primordial soup

Nov 19, 2007 - 01:14am PT

my dog having a HUGE impact (at an unidentified clif)

my dog raising all sorts of hell while we are a pitch off the deck

sending slab problems

hogging the crash pad

destroying all of JTree on a fine day

where some would like to see him for those heinous acts

locker style pause, for added effect...

one dog, one vote

Mtnmun

Trad climber

Top of the Mountain Mun

Nov 19, 2007 - 01:17am PT

I hope you are not in Los Angeles, Chaz, you are in violation of the LAW!

Joshua Tree was complete madness today. There were so many people. The parking lot for Hemingway was jam packed. I assume there were 5000 climbers on White Lightening at once.

I did not see a dog, and the coyote's were scared.

Matt

Trad climber

primordial soup

Nov 19, 2007 - 01:22am PT

kev- they generally attribute it to the "historical presence" of horses'n such

Mtnmun

Trad climber

Top of the Mountain Mun

Nov 19, 2007 - 01:27am PT

The horse lobby is huge. They are hands down the most powerful use group in the wilderness. They sewed up trail rights many years ago in the Sierra. Nothing better than sweating up a horseshit trail I always say. There are some awesome cowboy camps in the back country though.

Matt

Trad climber

primordial soup

Nov 19, 2007 - 01:39am PT

yikes!

that'll make ya all swelley, mon...

dirtineye

Trad climber

the south

Nov 19, 2007 - 01:42am PT

"I take my dog most places. His happiness is my responsibility. If he bothers people, too f*#king bad, most people bother me. If they bother me enough I ask their owners to take care of them (usually a girlfriend or parent). If my dog bothers you, ask me to take care of him... I'll handle it. If you prefer to kick him (or shoot him) because he pisses you off... I'll most likely kick you because you piss me off. That sounds like a lovely scene. If a dog bit me, I'd grab the biggest rock I could get my hands on and start bashing his skull."

Thus answering the moron question very nicely.

I guess inflicting your dog on other people is one of your god given rights then.

What are you going to do if your own dog bites you?

Mtnmun

Trad climber

Top of the Mountain Mun

Nov 19, 2007 - 01:46am PT

LMFAO Swelley mon I've been bit too many times myself.

I had a large rotweiler try to bite my mountain bike tire as I was riding. Every time I rode past his house, here he would come a running and barking. I was mighty glad it was the tire and not my leg.

dirtineye

Trad climber

the south

Nov 19, 2007 - 01:50am PT

So swelly, did you marinate that mutt a while, or did you just grill it raw?

Just think, if every non-dog owning climber Bar-B-Qued a dog at the crags, pretty soon dogs would not be a problem. In fact, there would be a crag dog shortage, and some enterprising person would start selling dogs of the most tasty variety near the popular crags, and the economy would be saved.

All those Koreans who have been eating dog for eons would take up climbing just for the food!

And since Long pointed out that tastes differ, I'm sure you can roast em in a dutch oven, or even try dog tartar, a sort of dog sushi if you will. In fact, maybe Nature can put something together for the next sushi fest!

Little Yappy Dog From Hell goes great with wasabi, I've heard.

Cuz

Trad climber

Nov 19, 2007 - 01:50am PT

Mtnmum - “Joshua Tree was complete madness today. There were so many people. The parking lot for Hemingway was jam packed. I assume there were 5000 climbers on White Lightening at once.”

Should of drove up 2 more turnouts and joined us at Course and Buggy and Sow Sickle. Only one car there besides us and no people or dogs. Did see a coyote in its native environment as we left after sunset, standing in the middle of the road waiting for someone to feed it!

Mungeclimber

Trad climber

sorry, just posting out loud.

Nov 19, 2007 - 01:53am PT

I've had climber's dog (even some that post on this site) come after me barking an ready to bite. I was not hostile. I was not near the climbers or their packs. (50' away) The dog was off leash.

I've had good friends have their dog piss on someone else's pack at a crag and not apologize profusely.

dogs off leash are a problem.

I love dogs.

But for many dogs, there is a chance they will flip and bite and it is the OWNER'S responsibility to insure that dog is under control.

Strict liability applies for dog bites. Your dog bites me, I will make sure you are paying for all medical bills, assuming the dog survives the encounter.

Not hate. Just leaving it open ended, since other's have posted about how they won't mind leaving their dogs off leash or letting them bite others.

Futhermore, I will report hostile dogs off leash to LEOs if they appear to be a problem.

/end rant