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mark miller
Social climber
Reno
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Nov 13, 2007 - 09:38pm PT
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It was sweet in the 70's, the only people you would ever bump into were hardcore TM Herbert, Jay Smith or other guide book authors. The sport has too many people now adays and we have to adjust to accommadate this change. I don't like it and am slow on change, (but the medication helps). You have to step up and be responsible and make sure the gumbie to your right doesn't kill anyone. It's weird 30 years ago the ridiculous stuff you see at the crags didn't happen. I was showing a freinds wife ( 60 year old) how to climb at swan slab and the young gym climbers next to us had a sling on a tree( No biners) with the rope running through it and there buddy on belay with a figure 8 without having it clipped into a biner' or to there harness, Go Figure. So if the toprope sling didn't burn through or a loop came off the figue 8,and the guy could hold the weight with his bare hands, no one was goin to get hurt, might as well free solo the Eigerwand.
Us ol' folks need to pay attention and not allow the generations that have grown up in a soft society where everything is idiot proof to not die next to us. Not only is it bad Karma but it is a resposibility that we own( have inherited) as perpetuators of this sport we have given so much of our lives to.
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survival
Big Wall climber
arlington, va
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 13, 2007 - 09:48pm PT
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Just like climbers, the responses are smart and varied. You all have made a lot of good points.
I too have encountered many people in the last year and a half that don't know the first thing about the use of Trad gear. If it's a bolt or a tree, they know how to use it. Hey, we all started somewhere.
Mighty Hiker, I think I know what you mean, but.....
the definition of sport in this book here is: source of diversion/pastime, physical activity engaged in for pleasure.
The definition of avocation is: a subordinate occupation pursued especially for pleasure. hmmmm
Climbing has been referred to as a sport for as long as I have climbed, also lifestyle, game etc.
I take exception to the suggestion that changing the word to avocation is going to make all these new bodies run away, but they might have to go look it up like I did.
Your brother in linguistics,
B
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drc
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Nov 13, 2007 - 09:57pm PT
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More thoughts:
At my gym, you have to send a 10b no falls, no takes, and be "real solid" in order to get your lead belay card. Granted it's a mindless upsidedown ladder and I want to see some of these staffers on Needle Spoon or Reeds Direct, but maybe we should learn from the gymies. Why not have some dirtbag administer safety tests at the popular crags on their rest days? Most of the noobs being discussed here wouldn't know that they aren't technically required to be certified to climb outside. We can start a SuperTaco beer fund to compensate these safety monitors.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, Ca
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Nov 13, 2007 - 10:01pm PT
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Pleeze tell me that was a troll??
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Watusi
Social climber
Newport, OR
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Nov 13, 2007 - 10:12pm PT
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No, all jesting aside...I was a guide for more years than I can remember sometimes and feel that our youth definitely are the future! I myself was mentored by some great folks and will always remember their kind words...
By the way...That's the always chic BVB on my left, ever inspired on our way to some end!
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mark miller
Social climber
Reno
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Nov 13, 2007 - 10:13pm PT
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A 10B to get your real rock climbing card...What about all those 5.9's put up by Robbins and those 5.6 chimney routes done by Harding( that have Killed people), I guess they wouldn't get their cards.....Gym ratings have no equivalent in the wilderness or even roadside craig. There's no purple tape to tell you what hold to use and no bolt to clip........Gyms were fun ( till we blew our tendons, 20 years ago) for real climbers but now the game has changed and gym climbers want to transfer their abilities to the outdoors. Good luck, us outdoor folks used to do 5.6 death approaches to do climbs on homemade gear, to do a 5.7 route, that's how we learned. If the Manzanita didn't bleed you out and the low quality homemade tube chalks didn't collapse under a fall, you were a lucky climber. The good ol' days are gone but the way we learned( by slowly pushing the grades and our abilities) kept us alive( by the grace of God at times). If you can climb 5.12 in the gym these punks are gonna think they can do Astroman, good luck.
BVB Is kinda look'in a little catholic( molestor) type in that photo dude. I won't post it anymore it might throw him off the band wagon....
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survival
Big Wall climber
arlington, va
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 13, 2007 - 10:33pm PT
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5.6 approaches to do 5.7 routes, man that hits close to home eh?
And the image of the manz bleeding me out too. Indeed, I was worried the first time I looked up Texas flake, and got worried on a long easy runout up high in the Needles, as an old head!
Gym vs stone. I had a friend who said he was solid 5.11 in the gym who promptly shat himself on the first pitch of New Dimensions.....following....No easy answers.
I don't think posting resting dirtbags at the bottom of routes is going to work though. HA!
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mark miller
Social climber
Reno
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Nov 13, 2007 - 11:02pm PT
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Oh well ( I've had enough to drink) let them die... Hom many 5.
4 Roper routes in the Seirra's have stymied us 10.b leaders?
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BeeHay
Trad climber
San Diego CA
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Nov 13, 2007 - 11:25pm PT
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Clark mentoring a female climber? Laughing martini out nose. Oops, there goes my olive!
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Fluoride
Trad climber
Hollywood, CA
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Nov 13, 2007 - 11:27pm PT
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Survival - is this the article you were referencing? From the Associated Press. ST's very own Minerals (Bryan Law) got a quote in it!! Jesse's in it too.
Best line of the article from some SF gymrat girl: ""I don't think they even clean your rocks off for you out there." ARGH!!Can't these people just stay inside their gyms please? Or get some windex and head up to Cathedral and make sure it's clean and pretty for her?
YOSEMITE NATIONAL PARK, Calif. (AP) - Evidence of rock
climbing's excesses are visible everywhere around the base of a
popular summer ascent here. Dead pines lie decomposing on the
eroded rock, their roots exposed by thousands of boot soles. The
approach is marred by 40 separate trails braiding around the
granite face.
Then, there's the garbage.
In September, volunteers packed out 900 pounds of abandoned
rope, snack wrappers and toilet paper strewn around some of Yosemite National Park's most cherished crags.
Millions of Americans have developed a taste for rock climbing, a fad fueled by a proliferation of urban climbing gyms and glamorized by programs like America's Next Top Model, which recently showed its models hanging from climbing ropes. But as
neophyte rock jocks head to national parks to test their skills in the great outdoors, some are unwittingly breaking the wilderness ethic governing the sport.
Others are violating federal wilderness regulations by drilling into the bare rock face with power tools.
As the sun crested on a recent morning at Yosemite's Tuolumne Meadows, a group of regulars clipping on chalk bags groused about what they see as an influx of clueless novices, who they assumed were responsible for a heist of $1,000 worth of equipment.
"The next time I see some guy with gear that's mine at the top of the peak, I'm gonna push him off," said Bryan Law, 35, a grin spreading beneath his mustache. "Some people just don't know how to behave."
Iconic among outdoor adventurers as the birthplace of rock
climbing in North America, Yosemite's mammoth granite formations
have a singular allure for climbers eager to push the limits.
And Cathedral Peak, a 10,900-foot temple of rock rising from the sub-alpine Tuolumne Meadows, is often where newcomers start.
Rookie Ha Pham, 23, hopes to venture up it eventually, but said she was concerned the conditions she'd find wouldn't meet her standards.
"They should have signs and stuff and trash cans outside,"
said Pham, who climbs regularly in the safety of a San Francisco
gym. "I don't think they even clean your rocks off for you out
there."
Yosemite's full-time climbing ranger Jesse McGahey is on a quest to teach such newbies how to develop technical skills and outdoor ethics at the same time. McGahey, who carries his gun in a fanny pack to avoid startling hikers, prefers to educate newcomers about the wilds rather than ticket them.
But on a recent weekend, when he came across an abandoned dog tied to a tree in the middle of bear country, he felt had no choice but to fine its owner $225 as he came strolling down from the summit.
"In the '70s, people used to teach each other how to climb
outdoors," said McGahey, 29. "Now a lot of people come out of the
gym and head straight for the woods, with no idea of what they'll
find there."
Other popular climbing destinations are also struggling to keep a balance between preserving the backcountry and helping gym rats aspire to something higher.
An Outdoor Industry Association survey showed the number of
climbers grew from 7.5 to 9.2 million people from 2004 to 2005. The percentage of people climbing on an artificial wall rose 30
percent.
Many newcomers don't learn the traditional climbing style
developed in the 1960s, but instead learn in a gym, where man-made walls feature bolts every three feet.
Young climbers often start out bouldering, a ropes-free style that helps build strength, but can also leave forest floors strewn with chalk and abandoned crashpads.
"There are lots of people out cruising around the woods looking for really fun boulders to climb on," said Phil Powers, executive director of the Golden, Colo.-based American Alpine Club. "But one of the biggest concerns that we have is that gym-to-outside transition."
In Southern California's Joshua Tree National Park, boulders are riddled with holes and stakes marking climbing routes. Rangers say the problem is twofold: it alters the landscape for non-climbers visiting the park and accelerates erosion of the rock formations.
At Arches National Park in Utah, officials feared climbers would damage delicate sandstone formations, so last year they banned slacklining, a strength- and balance-building exercise that requires walking on a nylon rope strung between natural features.
They also banned climbing on any arch named on a topographical map of the park, a United States Geological Survey guide climbers follow like a Bible.
Red Rock Canyon National Conservation Area, near Las Vegas, is taking a different tack. Land managers are considering placing a 10-year cap on the number of bolts and anchors climbers can wedge into the sandstone, hoping to encourage climbers to use natural protection instead of the quick approach favored by novices: drill more gear into the wall.
"People are looking for weekend escapes," said Rick Potts, the former Conservation and Outdoor Recreation Chief for the National Park Service. "Trips are getting shorter, and trips into the backcountry are getting less and less common."
McGahey approaches Yosemite's visitors - many of whom visit the park on weekend pilgrimages - his own way.
To prevent erosion near Cathedral Peak, he's working with
volunteers to block the braiding trails with dead logs. He and the nonprofit Yosemite Climbing Association recruited eco-friendly climbers to remove 21 tons of garbage throughout the park in last month's annual trash-pick up.
Each Sunday morning he offers climbers free coffee in exchange for participating in rap sessions about community responsibility.
Rock climbers don't need a backcountry permit even if they spend the night slung off the side of El Capitan, the park's famed granite monolith, so McGahey stresses leave-no-trace camping techniques.
Kay Okamoto, a Los Angeles-based urban planner who climbs at a gym during the week, soaks in all the tips she can.
"More people keep coming up here and getting stoked about going cragging," said Okamoto, 26. "What you learn about the
environment is really all in who you meet."
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BeeHay
Trad climber
San Diego CA
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Nov 13, 2007 - 11:48pm PT
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I must be a dick. Take a precious day to teach common sense to those who lack it?
We had a copy of Royal Robbins great little book 'Rockcraft', and a sh#tload of fear. Learned, lived, never had an accident or a lesson.
Molested by BVB in '78, BH
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mark miller
Social climber
Reno
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Nov 13, 2007 - 11:51pm PT
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Did you get a St' Christopher for the molesting or just wonderful memories?
That's how the real sport developed. I guess now they just start on the easy stuff 5.11 and learn from there.
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BeeHay
Trad climber
San Diego CA
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Nov 13, 2007 - 11:55pm PT
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Just a warm feeling. I won't say where...
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Nostrodomas
Trad climber
Visalia, Ca.
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Nov 14, 2007 - 01:19am PT
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I am very happy that I found a great teacher and mentor. Some of you might remember him from the Valley his name is Larry Zulim.
If you are reading this Larry I just want to tell you how much I appreciate the time and help, and to say thanks for dragging my ass out to the valley every week end. Kevin you to I guess....hahaha
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Watusi
Social climber
Newport, OR
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Nov 14, 2007 - 01:48am PT
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Whoa, Larry Zulim! Blast from the past! The Dinubian...( or was it The Visalian?)
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survival
Big Wall climber
arlington, va
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 14, 2007 - 08:34am PT
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Larry Zulim? Wow, serious way back machine. He was such a friendly guy, easy to hang around.
"oops, there goes my olive" "Just a warm feeling, won't say where" man you guys are cracking me up way the F out here in VA.
Yes indeed, that is the article I was talking about.
I'm not even talking about teaching these people the art of climbing so much as mentoring them in a sense of adventure and responsibility. Signs and stuff...trash cans....clean the rocks for you? Holy buckets man, to clean the rubble off some of my beautiful Chugach peaks in Alaska, you'd have to cart the whole damn mountain away!!
They need to drop some illicit sumpn' sumpin' and watch a thunderstorm on Mt. Conness...then they will begin to understand....
I've never done anything like that but I read about it in a book one time, and talked to a guy who said it worked......
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Delhi Dog
Trad climber
Good Question...
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Nov 14, 2007 - 10:04am PT
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"Just like climbers, the responses are smart and varied. You all have made a lot of good points."
-Survival
I'd have to agree with this, however with due respet to everyones thoughts on the issue, I think the big picture you all are overlooking is the fact that EVERYTHING is being impacted.
Look at the increase in kayaking, backpacking, biking, hell...golf!
My thinking is that its' directly proportional to the general increase in population.
Whether its more "noobs" at the crags who (will eventually figue it out one way or another, and if not...) seem to be percieved by most of us as some kind of "intrusion", or more anglers on the waters, its a fact that there are more people.
Why not go from the gym to the out-of-doors, hell wouldn't most of us?
Maybe most of them stay indoors like Lambone suggests. Either way more people, is more impact.
How many folks climb the Captian now?
How many are in the high country?
Nothing wrong with any of it because the reality is that we'd all be/or are doing it! Who can blame us.
Nope I say blame it on a population that is increasing. And, we should deal in some way with that.
Tough problem...
DD
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville
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Nov 14, 2007 - 10:06am PT
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Learning to teach well has been the most challenging and rewarding experience this life has given me.
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Delhi Dog
Trad climber
Good Question...
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Nov 14, 2007 - 10:07am PT
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Oh, and regarding the original post...
Hey, there are plenty of worthy people out there that just want to have a good time climibng. Why not help out where you can? Every one of us probably had someone that took the time somewhere along the line to give us a few pointers...eh?
Cheers,
DD
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survival
Big Wall climber
arlington, va
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 14, 2007 - 10:36am PT
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DD, how true. I can still remember how scared my mom was when I was 16 and a van load of long haired 21 yr olds would roll me out in my driveway with my hands all chewed up and grinnin' like a mo'fo'!!
Yeah man, I had some great teachers.
B
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