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atchafalaya
climber
California
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Nov 13, 2007 - 08:56pm PT
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Shame that a recent ascent update gets bogged down by this bs. Thanks Ammon, inspiring news. Solo on the SW? Wish I had the cajones...
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Mick K
climber
Northern Sierra
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Nov 13, 2007 - 09:01pm PT
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Seems like the only people who will ever see the damage from the hammering will be those who make the effort to go up there and climb it.
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Ammon
Big Wall climber
El Cap
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 13, 2007 - 09:06pm PT
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No, actually Hawkeye is RIGHT! If Ron would have done an FA up on that wall I know for SURE of two things: 1, he would not be bitching about clean placements right now… and 2, the route he would have put up would be a trade route by now, ie: doing decades of damage to try and “create” a clean placement… maybe he didn’t have the “stones” to climb that wall, huh?
How can we all respect guys like Mugs Stump, Conrad Anker and Paul Gagner for doing first ascents up there but we can’t respect those who follow?
And YOU of all people Ron, give me a f*#king break… you just keep showing us what a hypocrite you are.
Why not start your own thread and leave this one to those of us who find these ascents inspiring?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Nov 13, 2007 - 09:06pm PT
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Well that's just it Atch, its a question of values.
Those that worship numbers over ethics hold A5 in high esteem and care not for the consequences.
I would be willing to see the ratings drop a bit if it meant the route could go clean and be more durable. Its an acceptable compromise to me.
Besides, subsequent ascents of routes are generally easier anyway. Certainly psychologically.
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Ammon
Big Wall climber
El Cap
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 13, 2007 - 09:16pm PT
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Numbers?
We all seek the same thing Ron. The experience!
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Mimi
climber
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Nov 13, 2007 - 09:19pm PT
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Melissa, for someone supposedly so intelligent...
Your last two comments are unbelievable to me. I'll let Ron handle those if he wants to repeat himself for the umpteenth time.
No bivy gear? What about a rap line? I assume they checked the weather before blasting. And with all the beaks they're likely carrying, how could they possibly fail? My creds really don't matter; let's just say my climbing experiences in the US and Europe since 1976 (beyond the gym) provide me with the knowledge to feel comfortable enough to comment.
Since you define yourself as a gym climber, I assume you likely haven't climbed much outdoors, much less a wall, or on soft rock in the desert, so it's no surprise that you'd take this stance. The fact that you can't separate selfish intent and rock damage from the consequences is unfortunate. "...I often find inspiring"? Try harder.
The main reason that we aren't aware of folks pushing the clean envelope is that they aren't always out spraying about it. I've met guys in the last 10 years where that's all they do and they're as bad ass as they get. But hardly anyone knows who they are and they like it that way. They have nothing to prove.
I haven't done a wall in Zion but I respect the opinions of my friends who climb there all the time. It is a serious position to take that some routes should not be climbed at all anymore with pitons or not. Nuts in soft rock are also damaging. One of the main issues with Zion is that the land managers will eventually shut climbing down due to rock damage. But these sprayers could care less. Get em while you can! Climbers aren't the only people who impact the park, but we are definitely a group that has a highly visible impact to non-climbers from the ground. Previous threads have provided several descriptions of this visible damage.
Mick, that's not really the point though is it?
Hey Ammon, hope all is well. The fact that guys have done these routes earlier does not support maintaining the status quo. I still can't understand why you are so resistant to upping the bar.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Nov 13, 2007 - 09:23pm PT
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Well Ammon, you cross posted me. You seek the experience for yourself with little concern for the consequence.
I wonder if you know the wall's full history.
Back in the '70s when my ethics allowed for nailing I actually did stuff harder than C2. Try soloing Archangel there sport, or check out Canary Pass (oh well, too late on that one, but remember what Jim Dunn said after the NA "not as hard as Canary Pass"). Even did rurps and blade tips on the 7th of the Shield.
I checked out the Streaked, even talked with KT who had done the first pitch above the Rubicon. For a while I even had the highpoint on the rock when I went for a recon.
Bottom line; I figured that the white rock at the top wouldn't hold a route of ANY type to last.
(Could be we'll yet see on that).
But one thing I would NOT have done is jump another party's ropes all the way to the Rubicon, then traverse and toprope an independent start just to create a separate line and beat the other party to the FA of the wall,... as one of the people you held up for esteem DID.
Ahem,.. cough.
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yo
climber
The Eye of the Snail
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Nov 13, 2007 - 09:30pm PT
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No bivy gear? What about a rap line? I assume they checked the weather before blasting. And with all the beaks they're likely carrying, how could they possibly fail?
No offense, grandma, but you haven't a f*#king clue about the Streaked Wall.
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Mimi
climber
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Nov 13, 2007 - 09:32pm PT
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Thanks for the input, yo. The fact that it's the Streaked Wall is not important. I guess you're too young and stupid to know any better, eh?
Gear Edit: Or are you saying that it has no thin cracks that would require beaks?
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Nov 13, 2007 - 09:46pm PT
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"Since you define yourself as a gym climber, I assume you likely haven't climbed much outdoors"
You got it. I just come here for the pissy banter.
Off for the gym. I need to look good when I'm posing in the desert next week.
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crackfiend
climber
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Nov 13, 2007 - 09:58pm PT
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Hey Ammon yer boy is about 3 pitches off Rubicon as of this afternoon. Was in the canyon today spotting him with bino's. Looking pretty smooth so far. I know it is nothing compared to tom's post's but thought I would give Zion some climbing update love.
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Mimi
climber
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Nov 13, 2007 - 10:01pm PT
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Way to go, Mel, avoid the issue. Don't pull too hard on the plastic tonight. And have a splendid time feeling some real rock in the desert.
yo, get off your criticism of age. Time waits for no one, punk.
So the route's real steep. Big deal. That supports the assumption that they likely had every gadget under the sun (and an extra hammer) to make sure they wouldn't fail.
I'm sure they had an exciting and awe-inspiring time up there and it's great that they are safely down. Can't wait to read the TR and see the pics if they had time to take any.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 13, 2007 - 10:07pm PT
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Hahahahahahahahahahaha
Aid climbers arguing .......
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Nov 13, 2007 - 10:09pm PT
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Honestly, mimi...when you make all of these assumptions about bad style being used on a route you've never heard of by people you've never heard of in a place you've never climbed and go so far as to call the climbers "Lame Asses", arguing about it w/ you doesn't make much more sense than arguing about it with the dude that talks to himself on the corner near my house.
If you can't see the hypocrasy in takign pride in a hammerless ascent of a bolt ladder, I won't be able to explain it to you.
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Mimi
climber
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Nov 13, 2007 - 10:13pm PT
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Cool, Mel, so you have climbed outside. And I've climbed in Zion. Like I stated above, I'd really, really, really think it was awesome if Ammon reported that they climbed this wall and any others during their trip without unnecessary nailing. However, Ammon continues to support an indifferent attitude toward this goal. Hence, the discussion.
Thought you were headed to the gym?
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Nov 13, 2007 - 10:14pm PT
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Waiting for my bf to get home.
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Mimi
climber
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Nov 13, 2007 - 10:16pm PT
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Mel, since you're still here. Don't know where you got clipping a bolt ladder being a worthy alternative to represent clean aid from my statements.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Nov 13, 2007 - 10:28pm PT
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I love how the previous generation beat the living shite out of walls everywhere and now gripes about some guys tapping in some beaks here and there. It's a boomer affliction- live large and then expect the youngsters to tighten their belts. Do as a say, not as I did.
Good job on the SW! It's an inspiring piece of rock.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Nov 13, 2007 - 10:46pm PT
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Well I acknowledge the potential hypocrasy but there is a learning curve that can now be bypassed.
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T2
climber
Cardiff by the sea
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Nov 13, 2007 - 11:31pm PT
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Kudos to anyone that ascends the Streaked wall in any fashion. Ascending that wall with or without pins is bad ass.
With all due respect Piton Ron I am curious what the original hole count was for the 3rd pitch on the Dorn direct. Granted I did climb it in 92 or 93 (15 years after the 1st ascent)but it seemed a little heavy on the drill in my opinion. All the hooking was drilled and there was no shortage of rivits. Is this pitch considered excesive hammering in your opinion or didn't it matter because you got to do it first? It was only 2 years later those guys put up Jolly Rodger, where their standards still seem to be measured up too today.
We are arguing over pin scars on the streaked wall hahaha LOL, what a joke. How is that super highway of a trail doing on top of Angels landing? I wonder how long it will take for the urban sprawl happening in Las Vegas to reach the St George area?
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