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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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This is a Frost photo of RR at the fifth belay stance taken on the FA.
Three of the original thirteen bolts can be accounted for here. I recently asked RR if he remembered where the last original bolt was located and he couldn't recall.
I have a whim to replace the original thirteen bolts with stainless angle replicas to allow for some appreciation of the style of the FA. The sharp corners on the original hangers that were crucial for good bootbite back in the day will, of course, be eased considerably!
Any thoughts on refilling the original thirteen holes if that is reasonably discernable?
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Some relevant quotes from Robbins' account of the first and second ascents, in the 1963 American Alpine Journal:
(First ascent)
"Altogether, in nine-and-a-half days of climbing, we placed 484 pitons and 13 bolts."
(Second ascent)
"We dispensed with a camera this time and did not carry a bolt kit."
"As the clouds scudded over our heads toward the north, Tom skillfully led the difficult section of the blank area where we had placed thirteen bolts the previous year. The use of more bolts in this area had been originally avoided by some enterprising free climbing on two blank sections and some delicate and nerve-wracking piton work. It would take only a few [more?] bolts to turn this pitch, one of the most interesting on the route, into a "boring" walk-up."
It sounds like all 13 bolts then were on the pitches below the Half Dollar. At least until certain Stonemasters arrived...
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Tom Frost has got the eye for composition, hands down! So few El Cap routes have anything like a dozen total holes! It would also open the door for a first spotless ascent, original bolts only, otherwise hammerless.
SB in the Spring sounds good. And I got ya waxing all nostagic about the Graham Traverse so you are on board for the bottom of the Turning Point, me bucko!
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graham
Social climber
Ventura, California
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Hey, what are you guys up to?
You know with only 8 – 13 bolts for the route you would have to pull many boltless natural anchors. Back in the day those were Pin anchors! Makes me a little sweaty thinking of a bunch of cams for a station with a bunch of guys hanging (dicking) around on.
Reading back through this there is no way there were 46 or whatever bolts on this route back in 76. Royal must have been on something for that comment.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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The idea is not to clean house and make everybody spread 'em! Rather it is to provide in a relevant fashion some clue to the past. Once anyone paying attention to such details figures the shape and numbering scheme out it can't help but cause reflection especially once lucky thirteen was passed. It would be an interesting puzzle for everybody.
The West Face sounds like a good case too since only one replica/marker hanger would be necessary.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Here are some photos from November 2006 of the current bolts on pitches 5 and 6. I was having some bad camera problems on p5, so those photos are fairly ugly, but I believe they do show the bolt locations.
pitch 5, showing the current free line.
5-1 is a bolt at the top of the 5.10d groove. Probably not original. Probably a piton was used here originally, but the scar is too shallow for clean pro now, and it follows an 5.10a slab move, and protects a 5.9 section to bolt 5-2, so it probably needs to stay.
5-2 is probably original (or close to where the original one was). There might be a bolt between 5-1 and 5-2 that I backcleaned.
5-3 and 5-4 are not original, and probably added after Kevin and Mike freed their right side variation.
5-5 or 5-6 is probably the bolt Kevin placed; the other was probably added later.
I don't show the current belay bolt(s) (5-9?) at the end of the pitch; probably one was original.
pitch 5. View further to climber's left (skier's right). Dark spots 5A?, 5B? and 5C? might be where the original Robbins bolts were. Unfortunately the photo quality is very bad.
[Edit: I found the next 2 better quality photos from June 2007]
this time I backcleaned the slings from bolts 5-2 and 5-3
shows my aider on the free crux move (currently rated 5.11b, bolt 5-6) - I still had to do a couple of 5.10 moves out of the aider.
The chalked hold below 5-5 is probably the mantle Kevin describes in his post below,
so the bolt he placed when establishing the Free Blast with Mike was probably near 5-5 or 5-6.
Note that bolt 5-7 was simply placed next to the old 5-8, instead of in the original hole (not the right way to replace).
Anders' photo from 1976, bolt IDs by me
It looks like his partner just swung/lowered down from the nest of slings at 5-2 or 5C?
There is also the Frost photo of Robbins on p5, on p.63 of "The Vertical World of Yosemite", and a higher quality version on p.142-143 of "The Stanford Alpine Club" (photography editor: Glen Denny). In both versions, it seems clear that Royal's foot is in an aid sling, maybe on bolt 5-2. In the higher quality version, there is a bright spot that looks like a biner to the right, about halfway over to the top of the 5.10d groove crack. So that might be another bolt, or maybe a pin?
pitch 6.
I'm not sure which of these bolts were original. A few shallow pitons might have been used in a few spots, but the scars are no longer usable. I don't know if Tom Frost has a photo of this pitch.
There is a broken rusty 1/4" bolt remnant at 6A. It can be bypassed by a couple of 5.10+ moves or by reaching for the fixed pin with a cheater stick (or something improvised like some wired nuts girth hitched together). Neither of these techniques makes sense for the first ascent, so 6A was probably an original bolt (or maybe some holds broke off and the bolt was added later). It would be difficult to replace in its original hole, since the old rusty stud would have to be drilled out, but it is probably possible.
pitch 6, photo of Jeff Lowe in 1969, with my IDs of the bolts.
This should confirm that at least 6-2 and 6-3 are likely original.
pitch 6, Anders' photo from 1976, bolt IDs by me.
Looks very similar to 2007. Nothing at that location 6A, so it could have already broken off or been removed by 1976?
[Edit to hopefully clarify: when I used the terms "original" and "not original" above, and I explained why bolt 5-1 "needs to stay", I did not intend to suggest that all (or even some) non-original bolts should be removed. However, few would complain if 5-8 was removed and carefully patched. Since people do not use pitons there anymore, and piton scars have changed some of the placements, a rollback to the original equipment is not desirable. But I support Steve's interest in determining where the original 13 bolts were placed, and marking them with special hangers. That way, current climbers may gain some perspective on what the route looked like originally.]
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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I'm not sure what the feeling is about belay bolts.
I can understand the "classic experience" sentiment, but personally a couple of well placed belay bolts don't detract for me from having a appreciation of the original climb.
And they can sure help my bad back when hauling.
I am guilty of adding one such bolt at the far right end of Mammoth (maybe in the background of George's pic of Jello) some thirty-odd years ago, but I have an "out".
I had just completed a new pitch up to Mammoth and wasn't really on the Salathe but rather the Dorn.
Wonder if it is still there (and if its still alone).
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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To be clear here, no house cleaning of extraneous bolts is proposed unless they are clearly idiot bolts. God forbid people have to set up their own gear anchors! LOL
I think the original holes might be 3/8". Any such observation Clint?
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Question is are you the fish or the bait?
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graham
Social climber
Ventura, California
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Hey Kevin, doing well…
I agree that would be a fun day an especially out on that slab between the Nose and the Salathe. Still some adventure to be had there for sure.
Steve I think you are spot on with your idea. I have always enjoyed looking at the fine details of a route and think back as to how perhaps the FA party felt on it. I get equally strong feelings looking at something that’s gone free since then. Experiencing all the history of a route just adds more to the moment.
No bolts should be removed from anywhere on the route as even poorly placed ones are cause for reflection. The free climbing should supersede on any pitch (sorry)
Clint looking at all those bolts scattered around its hard to remember which way we actually took. I would guess in today’s shoes you would have more route options available. I do remember bolts weren’t skipped or removed to make it a bolder pitch they were just plain not needed. Obviously hind sight being what it is just adding the free variation and leaving the bolt ladder alone would have been the best choice.
If you look at the Salathe in its whole you see its not the most direct way up the Captian but that’s the beauty of it. Royal’s and Tom’s vision was a natural path that would yield a route with the least amount of unnatural placements. The path we chose on the slab followed the same premise, a weakness in a wandering line of holds. Not the most direct but the least evasive to the rock which after all should be our biggest concern.
I have posted this link before but I think its pretty relevant as well as a damm good story if you haven’t read it. Coming from a First ascension’est return to the Salathe there is no reference to the condition of the route only the experience of being up there again.
Salathe 2001
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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You guys have an interesting challenge ahead. It should help a great deal that you're debating the options in public (more or less), where others can put in their two cents if they want. Many will undoubtedly care about what happens.
I'm wholly in support of responsible climbers cleaning up the climb, including all the junk that has no doubt collected en route, the superfluous bolts (q.v.), etc. Perhaps Chris Mac could then be persuaded to publish an updated topo, showing the route's modern state - assuming there were any real changes. I might be able to help, as a Sherpa anyway, if it was done this fall. Perhaps a clean-up/restoration of one or other of the major Valley routes could be part of the FaceLift each year?
Part of the challenge may be defining what result(s) would be desirable. Another may be carefully measuring community expectations. For a route that's so well established, so heavily travelled (especially to Mammoth), and climbed in so many different styles, that could be interesting.
The prevailing style and expectation is that the Salathe Route (Wall) is 5.9 - middle 5.10, A2, meanders a fair bit, has a good share of wide cracks, and has lots of variety. Perhaps 60 - 70% free, for those climbing at moderate 5.10 level on the wall, and taking many 4 - 5 days. A small minority do the climb all free, in a day, etc. Many using significant variations, e.g. the Monster Offwidths or the pitches left of the Headwall. Most expect to find two good modern bolts (at least) at belays, which is two more than there were for virtually all the belays when the route was created.
I suspect that not many climb the lower pitches all free, or do the Free Blast traverse in from the first pitch of the Nose. I believe both are 5.11, as is some of the climbing on pitches 4 and 5 (leading up to the Half Dollar). Those two pitches are also rather beat out - I believe they originally involved nailing in seams, interspersed with bolts and free moves. So simply replacing the original 13 bolts, which were mostly in that area, won't really restore the route or that area to its state in 1962.
Making the route so that those lower pitches somewhat resemble what they were like in 1962, but meet other expectations - belay bolts, freeable by variations and protected for those able, aidable for the many who choose that - could be interesting.
I have some slides of the lower pitches from 1976, and will look to see if they shed any light on the status then.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Old pre-alteration photos are the key here unless my 3/8" hole size assumption turns out to be correct. Post away as it is clearly on topic! The cool thing about having Kevin and Mike involved is the accuracy of treatment of their contribution. I don't think the big downward traverse will ever see much action!
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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This is more of a historical demarcation than a restoration effort, per se. Don't want to hit the route with the ugly stick!
Lots of bolts in that era were the Star drivin type placed shallowly. Do you guys remember crap sticking out above the hanger when you chopped them?
Hopefully, some early shot will reveal bolt type as visible from the other side of the angle stock hangers.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Wow Jello, classic. Makes me wish I had those early hardman experiences during the golden age, when the walls were uncrowded, and few climbed. Nearly every line you could dream would be a FA. Stay limits in the valley in Camp 4 were unheard of. The world was in better condition environmentally speaking, but even then it was changing fast.
Reminds me of the movie "SOLO."
A simple time machine just to go back to certain points in history and experience those special moments, without the possibility of changing the future would be something wouldn't it? I think I would keep going back to a time when Shrub wasn't the president.
Sure we can still have those same adventures today, but now you have to go to the remote ends of the Earth, travelling through beautiful countries where the people hate us (thanks Shrub!!). The vib is definately different and unsafe now and not because of objective dangers that mother nature throws at us.
There is something to be said about the Golden Age of Big Wall Climbing. Wish I had been there to experience that. I was 7 in '69.
Truly inspirational.
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cintune
climber
Penn's Woods
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OT, but the "environment" was objectively a lot worse off in many areas before the Clean Air and Water acts were passed. Rivers catching fire, that sort of thing.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Klimmer- you can be right there if you leave your hammer on the ground or otherwise factor some real uncertainty into your next adventure. The adventure that you experience while climbing is entirely dependent on style. Head on up there alone with a few Tiger Milk bars and couple of quarts of water and you have what they had!
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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I added 3 more (improved) photos and more comments to my post above.
Ron,
> I am guilty of adding one such bolt at the far right end of Mammoth (maybe in the background of George's pic of Jello)
I'm pretty sure that the photo of Jello is on Hollow Flake Ledge. Compare with Tom Frost's photo of TM "hanging himself" on p.97 of "Royal Robbins, Spirit of the Age". You can see the contours on the outside of the ledge match perfectly. Also there is a small overlap where TM is anchored which is not very visible in the Lowe photo (no little overlap there at Mammoth). Also Mammoth is flatter right there.
> some thirty-odd years ago, but I have an "out". I had just completed a new pitch up to Mammoth and wasn't really on the Salathe but rather the Dorn.
:-)
> Wonder if it is still there (and if its still alone).
There are two there now. Very nice to have - I have used them several times.
Steve,
> I think the original holes might be 3/8". Any such observation Clint?
I don't know. I did it in '85 but haven't checked the slides yet and they may not show sizing.
The broken bolt remnant on p6 is definitely 1/4", but I don't know for sure if it was original. It seems likely to be original, though.
Kevin,
> I noticed the photos Clint posted appeared to be taken from the perspective of RR's belay in the historic Frost photo that Steve posted.
Yes.
> When Mike and I did the Freeblast, I distinctly remember continuing past the ladder a good sixty feet to a ledge below the Half Dollar to belay. This was a position where I couldn't see the bolt ladder, as the slab changes to lower angle above it.
It sounds like you combined part or all of what is now p6 - see the 1982 Meyers topo (or 1987, 1994).
> RR's belay in the Frost photo employed the last 2 or 3 bolts of his ladder, perhaps, and his rucksack hangs from the final (13th?) bolt.
> Is there a bolted belay stance there now?
Yes, there is a bolted belay stance right in the position of the Frost photo. That is the current end of p5 on the Meyers topo.
I can't accurately ID the bolts on the current p6 in Frost's photo. It would just take a new photo from that exact spot to do it, though.
Anders,
> Perhaps a clean-up/restoration of one or other of the major Valley routes could be part of the FaceLift each year?
I like the spirit, but I think it has to be done very carefully, so I don't think it should be annual or synchronized. It's not really the same as a bunch of people going out independently and clearing trash from the bushes.
> Most expect to find two good modern bolts (at least) at belays, which is two more than there were for virtually all the belays when the route was created.
Incidentally, there are still several belays without 2 big bolts. For example, the belay under the Half Dollar, and the next 2 above it.
I appreciate your excellent description of the kind of traffic the route gets.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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I think that shot is all about TM's mug! But I'll check it after the game!
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