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John Moosie
climber
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Oct 26, 2007 - 04:59pm PT
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Bacher, There is a difference between invention and production. No one said the chinese can't invent things. They just aren't bothering to make quality wares because Americans buy the crap by the boatload at Trashmart.
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Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
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Oct 26, 2007 - 05:15pm PT
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RE:
" They just aren't bothering to make quality wares"
ultra high quality isn't mass-market, never has been but Gucci (suits) and DKNY (jackets) are made in China (and of course other places in Asia as well)
"because Americans buy the crap "
right, so maybe it's not the fault of the Chinese.
crappy products can come from anywhere, even right here in the glorious USA...
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John Moosie
climber
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Oct 26, 2007 - 05:18pm PT
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You are right Raydog, I misspoke. China will make crap as long as Americans are willing to buy it.
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Gene
climber
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Oct 26, 2007 - 05:25pm PT
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Care to explain? Yeah.
Chinese manufacturers don’t stock the shelves at US retailers. They make stuff that outside companies contract with them to make. The Chinese build it to the specs provided by the buyers. Basic, huh? I don’t think there are many factories in China doing spec manufacturing of pipe wrenches with Craftsman labels for sale at Sears or OSH. What is produced overseas doesn’t get on the boat if it has not been inspected or otherwise certified as meeting buyer specs by the buyer or an independent third party. The check isn’t cut until the boat is ready to leave port. That’s how it works.
So, the POS that you buy is what your friendly, local, big box conglomerate thinks you want. The quality they think you want at the price you will pay. Your beef isn’t with the Chinese, it’s with your retailer.
The best computer I’ve bought was a ThinkPad built by Lenovo. Which country dominates flat panel TVs?
“Every time a Chinaman sees a corner, he wants to cut it.” Bullshit on several levels.
You buy crap from Sears and blame the guy who made it the way Sears told him to? Ready, fire, aim.
GM
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Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
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Oct 26, 2007 - 05:37pm PT
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RE:
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You buy crap from Sears and blame the guy who made it the way Sears told him to?"
this is exactly right
US brands will push their Asian sources to the absolute limit, and beyond.
Wanna TNF tent knocked off for $17.95?
I know of a plant that can do it, but the end product will have maybe 4-6 stitches per inch, old thread, cheesy fabric etc, but it will absolutely hit the price target as specified.
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ahad aham
Trad climber
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Oct 26, 2007 - 05:40pm PT
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and the shareholders here are smiling all the way to the bank
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 26, 2007 - 05:49pm PT
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Gene and Raydog, those are excellent points. I'll probably still buy Craftsman tools at Sears, but I'll just buy ones that are made here, it's easy enough to read where it was made. I've just had too many bad experiences with crap made over there.
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Euroford
Trad climber
chicago
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Oct 26, 2007 - 05:54pm PT
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we've started to see some Chinese curtainwall products enter my business. these projects have not gone well, we've decided as a firm to steer clear, but we hear everything through the jungle drums.
allot of the GC's and developers just see the $$$'s. common really, if you order the exterior skin of your godamn skyscraper from china, what did you expect?
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Oct 26, 2007 - 06:00pm PT
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Most of you are probably too young to remember how we went through the same cycle with Japan after the war: lots of cheap, poor quality stuff until they got their house in Order.
Personally, I'm studying Confucius and Mandarin. Since both my kids are Asian I'll be "qualitatively" accepted. My daughter, Tia, has said that she'll probably put in a good word for me if I let up on insisting she lead. " A man's gotta do what a man's gotta do."
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bachar
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Oct 26, 2007 - 06:08pm PT
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Gene and Raydog hit it on the nailhead.
Chinese factories make what the manufacturer tells them to. They themselves do not have a large enough consumer base demanding their own high end products so it isn't profitable to manufacture high end stuff...yet.
There are companies now that are just now turning to Chinese manufacturers to make high end stuff. Soon things will change.
If you take the smartest 20% of the Chinese population, that's 260 million people. That's a lot of brain power. It's just a matter of time when the junky stuff will be made in the USA and the Chinese stuff will be the shiznit.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Oct 26, 2007 - 06:36pm PT
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I guess I'd like to point out here that Honda now has a great number of it's cars manufactured in China. Guess what? The Chinese manufactured Accord rates higher than the Japanese manufactured Accord. A great number of the highest consumer rated cars are now made in China.
Basically, see what Gene says above.
Why do you think the U.S. has kept Chinese cars out of our economy for so long? Not because they're crap. Not because they can't pass safety tests/regs, or any of the other BS that the government hands you... Better and cheaper (significantly cheaper) That's how they are making things now, in comparison to "Made in the USA".
One thing's for certain, we better get our sh#t together soon. Regardless of any of this crap, China is the sleeping Giant that will run the world soon.
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bwancy1
Trad climber
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Oct 26, 2007 - 06:37pm PT
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Um....I just received a set of five new BD C4 Camalots.
All made in China.
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Oct 26, 2007 - 06:51pm PT
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I'd like us to establish a relationship with China that might evolve into an economic and security coalition sometime in the future. China will, in my opinion, settle in as a Confucian/capitalist society in time - a giant Singapore.
Working together instead of competing would establish a combined power that could really maintain world stability. This is the only way we might avoid the pitfalls of the past that have resulted in major conflict. Mind you, this is a hope.
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le_bruce
climber
Oakland: what's not to love?
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Oct 26, 2007 - 06:53pm PT
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"Ready, FIRE, aim." -Gene.
A habit for many of us Americans, since... how long?
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Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
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Oct 26, 2007 - 07:42pm PT
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RE:
"I'll probably still buy Craftsman tools at Sears"
hypothetically it isn't hard to imagine an entity like Sears putting pressure on Asian sources to meet a certain price, and the source cutting certain (QC) corners to get the job done. Sears, feeling that they may need to play a price game w/ other brands when in fact it may be their brand identity and/or customer service that are the problems limiting (perhaps unrealistic) sales goals.
I'm not trying to slam Sears, it seems rare that any brand can see itself objectively, and self-critique accordingly, all the time.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Oct 26, 2007 - 07:56pm PT
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Have a look at anything written by Joseph Needham, the very distinguished historian. His 15 volume book, "Science and Civilization in China", and institute of the same name, are very well known for their thoroughness and accuracy.
http://www.nri.org.uk/science.html
He is no apologist for China, nor a chauvinist when it comes to Chinese history. China was not the first place with agriculture, was not the first place to be civilized (as we usually define it), and did not invent many things. But it still did a very great deal.
China has had a setback over the last few centuries. But any sane outside observer looking at the scene in say 1421, would have put money on a Chinese/oriental dominated world, not a European.
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Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
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Oct 26, 2007 - 08:03pm PT
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yeah, plus...
I once hung out in this bar/resteraunt in China w/ these two Chinese cats from a factory i was visiting. They ordered the rounds as we dined on some killer lean beef strips and fried veggies, doing shots of Saki, tossing back beers, then several shots of whiskey (they MADE me do it!). I strolled out of the place singing, clear headed but completely plastered. No hangover either. Those cats were cool (the Saki didn't count, they told me) that was a fun night.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Oct 26, 2007 - 08:08pm PT
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Must have been *really* drunk, Ray... As far as I know, Saki (sake) is a Japanese drink, not Chinese... =)
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Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
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Oct 26, 2007 - 08:10pm PT
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nope it was Sake (Saki?)
yeah, and they have sushui there too, dude
there is also a McDonalds in Yangzhou (sp?)
way the heck out in northern china...
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