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Melissa
Big Wall climber
oakland, ca
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Nov 23, 2004 - 06:46pm PT
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Many of the best climbers that I know are over 40 or real close to it. Does being over 40 really change the way that you train? Do you really feel your physical ability slip, or is it more of a slippage in inclination or availability to train hard?
Roger, FWIW, there are probably more than a few '5.11' climbers that couldn't do some of your 5.10's.
And what do you mean, "ugly thought"?!
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Mountain Man
Trad climber
Outer Space
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Nov 23, 2004 - 06:47pm PT
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Roger,
A point. I know you're not talking about the godnesses who grace our forum, right?
Right!!!
I'm 55 and am climbing better than I ever have in my entire life. I'm climbing some 10s, which I never did in the 70s.
I train much more, and climb a lot more. I've been bicycling 1500 to 2000 miles a year in very hilly terrain since 1996, I got so strong I stated running, joined the ski patrol, added ice climbing, started going to the gym during bad weather. I've had to learn how not to get hurt. I definitely pull back with sprains, as it's easy to make them worse pounding on them. Certain machines in the gym are dangerous. I learned to do more reps at lower weights.
Now I want to drop in the 150s, from 162 where I'm stuck. With all my training I get very hungry, and with six kids, our house is full of snacks. My downfall is my love of chocolate and all its manifestations.
One more thing. It's so easy to get in a groove and not challenge yourself. I've got a couple climbing partners who are 20 years younger than me, who really have blasted apart ideas I had of my abilities only a year ago. I was scared a year ago of four days of hard climbing at J Tree and Red Rocks. Now I can't wait to get to J Tree for 6 days in February.
I mean, what good is all this training if you're not going to climb Fairview Dome?
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Mountain Man
Trad climber
Outer Space
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Nov 23, 2004 - 07:40pm PT
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Try page 41 nd 42. As for the commie pinkos, isn't that their dream date?
Now now, it's just a gentle joke.
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dufas
Trad climber
san francisco
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 23, 2004 - 07:46pm PT
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thank you for fouling this thread with that photo
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Roger Breedlove
Trad climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Nov 23, 2004 - 11:10pm PT
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Crips, I stuck my foot into it with my ‘ugly thought’ comment!! Let’s see, how do I gracefully back out of this?
Obviously, I was not referring to our resident rock goddesses. I was sort of stuck in this view that amongst my set of friends we keep well clothed. We let our charming personalities and our purchased finery hide our faded natural beauty. When we do see young things—nubilians--that may or may not need charming personalities to get attention, we think of our daughters—somehow it gets way too complicated, way too fast. Then you say anti-charming things, and have to go explaining yourself, and no one really cares, and oh, just shut up.
Ever wondered why some older men just stand there? They weren’t born yesterday.
Anyway, I was referring to old guys like myself. Now if we could post photos from a different time ….
After reading Mountain Man’s description of his charmed life, I am thinking that through all these complex emotions, it would be easiest just to secretly hate him. So here is the challenge MM: If you are going to be that *#&$ cheerful about being in such great shape, then you have to do something stellar—like free solo “Lucky Streaks” or lead “Bachar-Yerian.” Just another way of saying, “go for it.” I am envious.
And Melissa, I thank you for your inferred compliment, but I don’t think hard crack climbing—the starting point of dufas’ question—is any different now than then.
Best climbing, Roger
PS: Hey Chris, if you have any decency, you would make Jody remove that photo--unless it is one our very own ST campers trolling.
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Mountain Man
Trad climber
Outer Space
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Nov 23, 2004 - 11:48pm PT
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Mr. Jody, tear down that picture!
Roger, a charmed life? You gotta be kidding. It must be my golden keyboard.
I was on a big rush today, learning how to plug those thumbnails into the forum. It took me awhile. Even if I'm going on all cylinders, I still know that doom and death is out there waiting for me, I just don't know where. In my mind I'll still be climbing like this 30 years from now, but there are days when I don't know if there's a year left in me. So I roar with life and love, in a world filled with melancholic, miserable men and women. Hey, it can get downright depressing. Exercise and climbing keeps me high, i kid you not.
Don't hate me friends, for I need your friendship, and want to share our lives and our humanity and above all, our adventures. I must tell you, climbers are full of world class soul beauty. Roger, you wrote a heart felt note about the way men our age see the world. I can relate to that. I wonder why I didn't freeze my life at age 23. Wow, it was a very good year. But they all are, but different. Why have regrets, why fear the future. Na na na na na live for today.
Roger, I do wish we could get together to climb, just to meet, and talk, and see how we get along. Outside Lisbon, Ohio, there an abandoned quarry called Logtown (google it) I've met some climbers from Cleveland there. Think about it, although I think the season may be done around here. Ice ice baby!
Now, delete those picures? Sorry, i can't do anything about Jody's..
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Latitute 33
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Nov 24, 2004 - 03:01pm PT
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Roger:
Until last year, I thought I had this age thing licked (or at least it seemed there was hope). I too have had a debilitating nerve injury in my right arm. Now the gym (and climbing training) is mostly out... I stick to easier routes for the time being.
I have gone to sports doctors and physical therapy, and now am in the midst of acupuncture treatments (which seem to be helping...a bit). If this doesn't work, maybe surgery!!!
Riding to work a few days a week and riding at least one day on the weekends helps keep me in decent aerobic shape. Wife and kids do limit the time at the crags, etc. However, my wife climbs (better than me now) and so climbing is higher priority than might be otherwise (but getting out on my own is harder too).
Yet, there are many people I know who are my age who are climbing better than ever. Most do not have wife, kids, etc (but some do).
So, you just muddle along.
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davidji
Social climber
CA
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Nov 24, 2004 - 03:24pm PT
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Mountain Man wrote:
"I'm 55 and am climbing better than I ever have in my entire life."
I'm in my 40s, and I climb better than ever too, although that's not saying much.
Melissa wrote:
"Do you really feel your physical ability slip, or is it more of a slippage in inclination or availability to train hard? "
The thing that started slipping for me was exercise recovery time. I seem to need more rest between workouts then I used to. I train as hard as or harder than I have since college, but I rest more too.
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Mountain Man
Trad climber
Outer Space
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Nov 24, 2004 - 04:26pm PT
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Amen to that.
I think declining testosterone levels require us to exercise so much more just to tread water. I'm probably deluded about how fit iI am. I do have a sense of fatalism about what lies ahead.
I started climbing with a 65 year old this fall, and he could really crank. Out climbed me easily. He was 5' 11", which was part of it. He set up climb with holds only he could reach...
Now his reconstructed shoulder is completely blown out. His MRI is ghastly.
We each have to find the level where we can train and climb, without hurting ourselves. I climb as hard as anyone else. I just do it on easier climbs.
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can't say
Social climber
Pasadena CA
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Nov 24, 2004 - 04:42pm PT
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ok old dudes, here's a bit of lay physiology for ya. Once the body turns 30 (roughly) there is a steady decline certain functions we all take for granite:) Muscles atrophy at around 1/2% per year quicker then they did the year before. This is also true of lung volume. It decreases by the same 1/2% rate. So once you get up in your years, like me and lots other baby boomers, it takes that much more just to stay in the same shape you had the year previous. Compound that with off season inactivity (muscles start atrophying within 3 days if not being used) and you get your normal old assed, used to be in better shape, kind of person.
I have a very good friend who is a 65+ Masters road racer, who has many past national titles and he was relating how the fall off in fitness was particularly noticable after age 50, at least for him.
One of the issues I found with my fitness and aging is tendon and ligiment elasticity. So I try to avoid training that stresses those areas, and with regards to climbing, the shoulders and elbows are particularly suspect.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 24, 2004 - 04:59pm PT
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I am 50, still married (after 30+ years) daughter grown and on her own. I have a hellish management job (I manage physicists, one of which I used to be... much worse the cats... an example of the karmic wheel no doubt) where I am subject to unpredictable requests which I cannot turn down (from my boss, on Monday: "gee Ed, you were planning on being at the meeting in DC on Friday, or did I forget to tell you about it?", "you forgot, I can be there") which will kick the crap out of a weekend climbing trip.
I am climbing harder every year, on average. Though I am not sure when in the future I will be on 5.11 crack, I think it will happen, which is something I wouldn't have predicted 10 years ago.
Most of my climbing is Trad, in Yosemite Valley, Tuolumne Meadows, other Sierra crag venues (e.g. The Needles) and the high Sierra. All of my climbing goals for the last 10 years have been rock climbing goals.
I have found that what limits my progress the most is recovery from injury. And while I am not completely anal about it, I try to make sure that my training does not result in injury, if I am injured, it is on a climb rather then training for climbing. Unfortunately I have been able to accommodate that requirement recently...
Training: I find that technique training is most important, and that strength training is an ancillary benefit. Most of my increased "strength" can take place with a reduction in body weight rather then an increase in muscle strength. Keeping my body weight low has been really difficult as I get older. Aerobic conditioning is best, for me, to do this but also requires time. I stopped running 25 years ago because of knee problems, and bike... which means you need a bike, which means you generally don't exercise when on travel. Also, I find that having endurance is more important then any additional strength training.
Weight training has been more significant for me lately because of a pair of shoulder injuries, the right one two years ago and the left one this year. These are mostly strains which were less severe then dislocations but along the line of "rotator cuff" tears. Both were climbing related, one on a first ascent (a proud scar) and the other pushing through off route (stupidly stubborn). If I were religious at weight training then the shoulder muscles involved with stablizing the joint would be conditioned to take more abuse (anyone believing that the human body was "designed" would have to question the competence of the designer).
Yet another issue is to "accept" your "weekend warrior" status, which means you can anticipate the sorts of injuries you might have and be realistic about your day-to-day goals, at least in reducing the possibility or severity of the injuries.
Finally, maintaining good flexibility is an option which can help improve technique and compensate for decreasing strength.
A big problem in all of this is getting enough rest, keeping hydrated and eating properly. By the time you are my age you should know your body pretty well, you don't have any excuses not to, and certainly if you have been engaged in an athletic pursuit like climbing you have some awareness of how your body works. My major down fall in sustained, intense training is that I don't sleep enough. Simple as that. And I cannot necessarily change that with my current work activities.
I find that occasionaly I have gone through the whole day without drinking any water. That is very bad... and that I might choose food which doesn't optimize athletic performance. So there are a lot of things I could do better.
I generally train at the gym twice a week, Tu and Th. I don't push it on injurious routes, I don't dyno, I don't do heinous crimp problems, I don't compete with the teenagers bouldering. I find most of my effort involved in thinking what the best way my body can do those moves... what is the best technique rather than how to pull harder.
I go climbing on the weekends.
Injury recovery includes climbing, in a rational manner. There are exceptions, knee surgery required that I not climb for a couple of months. But climbing indoors when injured means picking the correct routes to do. Climbing outdoors when injured is somthing that I find most enjoyable as you can do many climbs many different ways. But you certainly don't push it when climbing injured in or outdoor.
Patience is an important attitude to maintain. I have been climbing for 30 years, I have had ups and downs in my climbing. I know that I can get better after being bad after being good. It just takes time, putting in the effort. But you can get better. I don't know what I will be able to climb at when I finally hang my boots up... it is a lot harder then I would have expected when I started climbing 30 years ago... maybe even beyond the top end of the scale at that time... (which is a huge psychological barrier).
Enjoy the sport for what it is to you, define it personally. Maintain a positive attitude and thank your lucky stars that you are still doing it! It isn't a job, you aren't competing for the cover of "Alpine", you probably aren't going to pull V15, or climb M10, do an alpine ascent of a 8000m North face equivalent, climb Zodiac in 1 hour, etc., etc... but you are going to do things which are important to yourself, you have your goals. One of my goals might be to climb 5.9 forever, Fred Beckey is a hero!
Grace in aging is important... we didn't all get the same package when we were born and we won't all be able to accomplish physically the same things. This becomes more apparent as we age. Accepting this and working this as an individual problem is important... just like working through a hard crux is an individual activity done with the support of others. Accept the support or otheres and gain the realization that physical limitations are just that, limitations.
Keep it interesting. After decades of free climbing I am starting to learn about aid again... doing the LA Tip last summer was a real trip, the aid lead previous to last summer was sometime in the early 70's. Right now ANY way is great, I don't worry about BETTER or BEST. And it keeps it all real and exciting. Swinging off of the Salathe ledge to jug the second pitch literally took my breath away, the first time I have had that sort of reaction climbing in a long time. Worth the ticket of admission!
Finally, think of your legacy to the sport. Many 40+ climbers have put decades into climbing, it might be time to contemplate how your experience can benefit the sport after we retire to the "Rock of Ages" climbers retirement home on our way to the Big Stone beyond...
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Roger Breedlove
Trad climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Nov 24, 2004 - 06:07pm PT
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Melissa asked about training after 40: I think the only issue is time to recover from an injury, but probably not noticeable as early as 40.
I did not notice any fall off in physical capabilities until relatively recently. For the most part I have never had aches or pains and have rarely injured myself. However, when I decided that I wanted to start climbing again--at a serious level (what ever that means)--I ran into problems.
I did what I would have done 25 years ago: push and pull hard. If something hurts, it will get better. No muscle or joint pain. What I found is that I was creating weird tendon and nerve damage, and that it would take 6 months or more to heal.
So now I am trying to stretch out my training and to be more patient. Not that many years ago, I could get into shape without injury in 4 months. Now it is more like 4 years. The down side is that it is hard to actually get in better climbing shape or improve my skill.
My arm was in bad shape before a trip to The New River a while ago, and I had my sports medicine physician relieve the pain with a cortisone shot. The long weekend of climbing was great, but I had to lay off pretty much everything for almost a year after that.
It makes me think that I should just resign myself to the current affairs and take up posting on climbing web sites.
Naw, only a wimpy, has-been would do that.
Best climbing, Roger
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G_Gnome
Trad climber
Ca
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Nov 24, 2004 - 06:15pm PT
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Like I said I am 53. I have been climbing since 1973 and at one point when I was about 40 I actually did a 5.13 route. I am now firmly ensconsed at the top end of the 5.11 bracket with some 12s falling. I took a few years off in my 40s and only started climbing hard again 2 years ago. I think the biggest factor in my ability to perform well is the fact that I am climbing so regularly. I am finally learning SOME patience and occasionally actually stopping before I injure myself. All of my over 40 climbing friends have that same problem. It is hard to take that week off when your body really needs it. If we weren't all so competitive it would really help, but then we would never have gotten good in the first place maybe. It also is easier for me because I have no kids and I do have several good friends who climb who are older and we tend to push each other a lot.
And then there is Bob Kamps who I boulder with and he is always 20 years older than me and always still climbing hard so that is a constant target to aim for. I only hope I am still climbing as well as him when I am in my 70s.
Ultimately though, you have to love climbing. Otherwise the pain just isn't really worth it and you might as well sit on the couch and watch football. Hell, you might even live longer that way; just not nearly as well!
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Mountain Man
Trad climber
Outer Space
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Nov 24, 2004 - 07:07pm PT
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You would not live longer.
All that aerobic exercise keeps the heart healthy and the weight down. Just hang on the couch a few months and it would be so hard to come back.
Great posts, gentlemen. Now what about deleting those risque pictures? Vote please
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Melissa
Big Wall climber
oakland, ca
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Nov 24, 2004 - 07:11pm PT
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Are they really risque or are they just women climbing (without a lot of clothing on)? Or were you talking about the pic of Reagan?
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Mill Valley
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Nov 24, 2004 - 11:17pm PT
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Today I saw a 48-year old redpoint his first 5.13d. He climbs 4 days a week;
lots of trail-running. (1 1/2 hour sessions)
Very inspirational!
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Doug Hemken
climber
Madison, WI
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Nov 26, 2004 - 12:16pm PT
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Slowing down after 40 is a combination of things, partly physiological, partly attitude. I'm definitely less flexible when I'm cold than I was 20 years ago.
I may be more prone to tendon injury and muscle strain, but I'm climbing longer and harder than ever, so its hard to say. I am *much* more attentive to those kinds of injuries than when I was a kid. I've lost almost a year of hard climbing in the last four years to broken bones and pulled tendons, and I'd rather not overdo it and lose any significant climbing time again.
Recovery time is also hard for me to sort out. I've lost a good 8 years out of the last 15 to recovery from several chronic medical conditions. Fatigue is just part of my normal life. I pay more attention to it than the 20-year-old kids I climb with, but as noted before, I'm less willing to overdo it.
Not losing precious time is a major theme in my life. Your life circumstances can change so quickly - job, location, health, climbing partners - that you gotta take what you can, now. You know, seize the fish.
If you want to climb hard after 40, I think you just shift your strategy a bit is all. Everyone has physical limitations, but as you get older you learn to acknowledge them and figure out how to get around them in a calmer and more focused way than when you were younger.
As for climbing with family, my over-40 partners run the gamut: with their significant others, without, with their kids, without. One has a "contract" with his wife for so many days of non-family vacation per year, but everyone has to balance family, jobs, and the occasional non-climbing interest. Even the 20-year-olds I climb with have to spend time with their families.
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Mountain Man
Trad climber
Outer Space
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Nov 27, 2004 - 08:34am PT
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Issue 209, Climbing, page 102 "Over 40 and Firing"
Advice:
Ward Smith: 1) Nutrition 2) Sleep 3) Ignoring the inner voice that says you're old
Herman Gollner: 1) good aerobic fitness level 2) warm down and warm up to prevent tendon injury
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Brutus of Wyde
climber
Old Climbers' Home, Oakland CA
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Nov 27, 2004 - 10:25am PT
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The biggest factor that changed in my climbing after I turned 40 (decades ago) was, as some others have noted, injury recovery time.
That, and there are some chronic conditions I'll likely never completely recover from... the suceptability of my left shoulder to tendon and ligament injury for example.
The only way I've been able to keep cranking hard in my dotage is to put up my own routes... ones that will likely never see a second ascent. That way, I can rate them 5.11 and no one will ever be the wiser.
To paraphrase ...who was it, Mad Dog?... I climb harder now than I ever did. I just do it on easier routes.
Brutus
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Roger Breedlove
Trad climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Nov 27, 2004 - 11:43am PT
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Hey Brutus, we should combine our personal chapters of The Denial Club and form a national organization. "I'll rate your routes 5.11 if you rate mine."
I have been reading the new book, "One Move Too Many..." by Hochhotzer and Schoeffl, Published by Petzl. I think I have identified my problem: Supinator Syndrome. If the supinator muscle, which rotates the forearm, swells too much it constricts the radialis nerve. It the stress of the muscle on the nerve continues, scar tissue can make the condition permanent. Stretching is often effective; otherwise it requires surgery.
This condition is caused by underclinging, certain type of pull-ups (common on hang boards) and--get this--opening wine bottles.
So here is my thinking, my choices are to try the stretching, if that does not work I would consider the surgery on the basis that I could probably live the rest of my life without actually doing any more climbing--although my stories would get old in a hurry--but there is no way that I’ll beg someone else to open my wine for the rest of my life. Left handed is to risky--old dogs and new tricks don’t mix. Maybe screw tops.
Armed with this information, I'm off to my friendly sports physician and svelte physical therapist. Life is good and getting better.
Best, Roger
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