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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Oct 18, 2007 - 12:40am PT
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LEB,
Answer: because Fish are not mammals and it is an emotional thing?
We are long past the “pioneering” stage of our societal evolution, so this when/where large-scale alternatives are being suggested and TIG follows that logically to say “so, what is the outcome of such a shift?”
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 18, 2007 - 01:01am PT
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We are long past the “pioneering” stage of our societal evolution?
We haven't even started here yet.
We are fools who don't even know who we are or where we are going.
And they say we are educated.
Rubber stamped knowledge for dressing the body.
Meanwhile the driver is starving and dying of thirst.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Oct 18, 2007 - 01:03am PT
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TIGGY writes
"Sharpen your pencil. Calculate a diet for average planet human (or just do it for the USA if you like). I know sounds like work."
You're always such a sport when you ask others to do what you don't do yourself.
Lois, I'm not saying it's justified, just that I'd kill a fish, and I have. I do like to kill things lower on the food chain that have less consciousness. If you train it like you can train pigs, maybe you shouldn't be eating it.
Tiggy, our digestive systems have far more in common with Herbavores than Carnivores. Talk about evolution, there is also social evolution. We've evolved from thinking that other races were animals and banned slavery. We've evolved from treating women like sub-humans, and we don't throw Christians to the lions anymore.
Who knows what the next institution of cruelty to fall will be? Boxing? Eating animals? Don't make assumptions cause those other past practices used to be commonly accepted by the majority and those who rejected them were treated like vegetarians.
Lots of hard crankers, like Sharma for instance, are vegetarians.
Don't assume the country couldn't quit meat on a large scale if they were somehow motivated.
Peace
Karl
Tidbits from the net
http://www.vegsource.com/how_to_win.htm
The Hunger Argument
Number of people worldwide who will die as a result of malnutrition this year: 20 million
Number of people who could be adequately fed using land freed if Americans reduced their intake of meat by 10%: 100 million
Percentage of corn grown in the U.S. eaten by people: 20
Percentage of corn grown in the U.S. eaten by livestock: 80
Percentage of oats grown in the U.S. eaten by livestock: 95
Percentage of protein wasted by cycling grain through livestock: 90
How frequently a child dies as a result of malnutrition: every 2.3 seconds
Pounds of potatoes that can be grown on an acre: 40,000
Pounds of beef produced on an acre: 250
Percentage of U.S. farmland devoted to beef production: 56
Pounds of grain and soybeans needed to produce a pound of edible flesh from feedlot beef: 16
The Environmental Argument
Cause of global warming: greenhouse effect
Primary cause of greenhouse effect: carbon dioxide emissions from fossil fuels
Fossil fuels needed to produce meat-centered diet vs. a meat-free diet: 3 times more
Percentage of U.S. topsoil lost to date: 75
Percentage of U.S. topsoil loss directly related to livestock raising: 85
Number of acres of U.S. forest cleared for cropland to produce meat-centered diet: 260 million
Amount of meat imported to U.S. annually from Central and South America: 300,000,000 pounds
Percentage of Central American children under the age of five who are undernourished: 75
Area of tropical rainforest consumed in every quarter-pound of rainforest beef: 55 square feet
Current rate of species extinction due to destruction of tropical rainforests for meat grazing and other uses: 1,000 per year
more at
http://www.answers.com/topic/environmental-benefits-of-vegetarianism
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Ksolem
Trad climber
LA, Ca
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Oct 18, 2007 - 01:03am PT
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LEB,
Cheney only hunts quail which are let out of a box right in front of him. And then he still manages to shoot a lawyer instead.
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malabarista
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Oct 18, 2007 - 01:04am PT
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"A vegetarian is someone who isn't sensitive enough to hear a tomato scream."
attr. Joseph Campbell
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Oct 18, 2007 - 01:11am PT
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Agreed Werner,
And some of us are beginning to see the driver slump into the wheel.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Oct 18, 2007 - 01:15am PT
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Lois,
To me, the fish vs fowl vs mammal preference seems purely emotional.
They all have a central nervous system right?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Oct 18, 2007 - 01:17am PT
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I think the planet would be better off if some forms of cannibalism were encouraged. Alas, its a PC world..
Humans evolved into a niche that exploited secondary status at a kill to collect bones and extract nourishment (and very rich nourishment at that) by using tools to crack them open for the marrow.
We were primarily scavenger/marrow eaters for a period previous longer than recorded "civilized" history.
While the versatility and adaptability of homo sapiens is our strong suit, most of us thrive in part in the carnivore links of the food chain.
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Mr. Spock
climber
Planet Vulcan
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Oct 18, 2007 - 01:48am PT
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Here is an ironclad, logical explanation why Earth's biological diversity would be better off if more humans were vegetarian (or vegan). You can try to smokescreen troll yourself on the details but you can't deny the logic. If you don't believe this but you're not lazy, just do a little research to prove it to yourself.
The premises:
1. The energy flow of ecosystems can be described in terms of trophic (=feeding) levels. As in:
First trophic level = "primary producers" = plants; they are the only organisms that can convert sunlight and inorganic molecules (water, carbon dioxide) into stored forms (e.g. carbohydrates).
2nd trophic level = "primary consumers" = herbivores; these are organisms that eat plants, such as rabbits (if human, we call them vegetarians)
3rd trophic level = "secondary consumers" = organisms that eat the primary consumers, for example a fox that eats a rabbit
4th trophic level = "tertiary consumers" = carnivores; organisms that eat primary consumers, for example a wolf that eats the fox that ate the rabbit.
Sometimes there can be more levels but there's a limit because of reason #2:
2. Only about 10% of the energy 'harvested' at each trophic level is transferred to the next trophic level. This is because things die and decay or are otherwise unused, energy is lost as heat, etc (2nd law of thermodynamics).
3. The amount of energy that can be harvested/stored by the primary producers is finite.
The explanation:
Let's say on the entire planet the primary producers (plants) can harvest 10,000 units of energy from the sun. "Units" is arbitrary - you can convert it to some other term if you want but it's easier to work with round numbers, and the bottom line is that it's finite.
Here's a breakdown of the energy available at each global trophic level:
primary producers - 10000 units
primary consumers - ` 1000 units
secondary consumers - 100 units
Let's also say, for the sake of this example, that all the humans on earth require a total of 50 units of energy to survive.
OK, think about it. If all the humans eat meat (= secondary consumers), that leaves only 50 units (100 total minus 50 for humans) for ALL the other secondary consumers on the planet. On the other hand, if all humans are vegetarians (= primary consumers), that leaves 95 units ([1000-50]/10) for all the other secondary consumers on the planet.
Obviously this is a stripped down basic example but the logic can't be denied. In other words, the rabbits got nothing to worry about. It's the wolves and polar bears that are in trouble.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Oct 18, 2007 - 01:55am PT
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man o man, go climbing for a few hours and you end up not knowing where to jump back in first on a thread like this;
-Tar, just my opimion, but, all CNS's aren't of equal value, my own view is that there is less virtue in eating Steven hawkings' brain than scarfing of an equivalent iQ 'weight' of planaria, call me taxo-centric? I don't think that at the core this is an emotional issue.
Sis, oh yeah, see the earlier cited joe Cambell for the topic of phototropism = concioussness. I'm with you on this one.
a check on omnivores is to look at the teeth;
Cats pretty much can't chew, = carnivore.
Dogs teeth give them more latitude.
same for bears.
Humans? - no biting teeth at all! more like rodents. the only way we can masticate meat is if it is cooked/ mashed/ to veggie-hood. = we are not carnovores, we will always pay the price (cardiovascular disease, etc)until we factor this point into our opportunsitic, omnivorous diet.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Oct 18, 2007 - 01:56am PT
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Look, it's us land creatures against those scaly bastards. Let those slimy scum die for our dinners!
;-)
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Oct 18, 2007 - 02:00am PT
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Oh karl, you're so ironically slime-o-centric!
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Oct 18, 2007 - 02:05am PT
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Jay,
marrow need not be masticated and its digestion begins in the mouth.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Oct 18, 2007 - 02:16am PT
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Yeah, ron,and it gives me the squirts in a double blind; are you implying that it is food?
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Chicken Skinner
Trad climber
Yosemite
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Oct 18, 2007 - 02:17am PT
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What if Vegans were human? Sorry, couldn't resist.
Ken
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Oct 18, 2007 - 02:19am PT
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That's fishy Ken.
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Chicken Skinner
Trad climber
Yosemite
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Oct 18, 2007 - 02:24am PT
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Roy,
We might to call Nature to weigh in on this one, I hear he has a clean slate.
Ken
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Hootervillian
climber
the Hooterville World-Guardian
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Oct 18, 2007 - 02:33am PT
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i blame my mother.
what'd you do TiG, go long on ethanol?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Oct 18, 2007 - 03:18am PT
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Marrow and salmon eggs are about the most nutritious foods that exist.
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Jello
Social climber
No Ut
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Oct 18, 2007 - 03:54am PT
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TIGs' OP is his typical bs troll, but the rest of this thread gives good (breathairian) food for thought... and it's funny!
JelloMeat
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