Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Jaybro
Social climber
The West
|
|
|
Oct 15, 2007 - 05:15pm PT
|
How about,if a route in a gym was rated say, G.9?
|
|
davidji
Social climber
CA
|
|
|
Oct 15, 2007 - 05:19pm PT
|
Anyone know if the woman who fell is OK?
|
|
Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
|
|
|
Oct 15, 2007 - 06:30pm PT
|
J.R. You might be able to ID the route from the route beta photos here on supertopo:
http://www.supertopo.com/routebeta/southlake.html?s=ratings&o=ASC&v=0&ftr=Hogsback&cur=0#list
Manic Depressive Direct (your route, on far right side)
Deception
If it was Deception, I have a friend who was an inexperienced leader and took a long scary fall on the second pitch a few years ago. I have seen inexperienced leaders do this pitch, and it is a bit too tricky for a starter lead, in spite of its friendly 5.6 rating. You are in a crack which fades into a seam, and the 5.6 version traverses right on a thin face at that point. If you stay in the crack, you don't get pro and it becomes 5.8 R.
Quoting from the Supertopo Route Beta for Deception:
"High on the second pitch, a traverse right avoids the direct 5.7 variation. While it appears tame, the direct 5.7 variation does require some awkward moves on small gear."
Deception p2 at the point where you are supposed to traverse right.
His protection was crummy so I extended a runner down from my anchor so he could clip it.
|
|
jstan
climber
|
|
|
Oct 15, 2007 - 07:16pm PT
|
Historically people who wished to learn lead climbing had
to find one or more teachers who would spend
considerable time one on one with them. Gymnasiums
cannot make a profit teaching this kind of skill and were
they to attempt it they would face a substantial increase in
cost of liability. Initially the gyms tried to extract a small
range of activities, i.e. top roping, with a very high priority
assigned to the presence of personnel to limit prohibited
activities. That they ever allowed “leading practice”
suggests the original range of allowed activities did not
allow them to hold the market strongly enough to continue
making a profit. The customers apparently would not put up
with it. Gym climbers with whom I have spoken implied
their interest in outdoor climbing was based up the gym
experience being too limited.
In the process of building their inadequate business model
the gyms may ultimately risk doing damage not only to their
customers but also to the “rest of us.” Do we think access
will not become a problem when greater and greater
numbers of people, whatever their training, are decking
out? Even that is not where this all stops. Now that
commercial climbing has become a reality and everyone
has become more litigious, does a well meaning volunteer
teacher face a new and serious risk?
Instruction is becoming something only the wealthy can
afford. While inability to gain access would help to reduce
the need for instruction, that is a poor solution. Even were
people to begin winning draconian suits against gyms we
would not have an answer. Draconian suits against
individual volunteer teachers would not be far behind.
There are those who would argue that making all climbs
“clip-ups” is the only answer. Hardly. Once a landowner
knows anchors of unknown quality have been installed,
those anchors become an attractive nuisance. In their
presence the owner’s liability escalates dramatically.
Saying the area is closed is not enough. Access must be
physically prevented. Failure of one anchor followed by a
suit will take us through this last turn.
Hard to avoid concluding that in the short term the only way
now for people to learn how to lead, is to teach themselves.
In the long term there appears to be no answer.
|
|
chainsaw
Trad climber
CA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 15, 2007 - 10:32pm PT
|
Thanks for the feed back. I hope noone was offended by my post. I guess I just wanted to get it off my chest. I was really scared when I saw what was happening that day. I hope she is alright.
Rob
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Oct 15, 2007 - 10:44pm PT
|
Yeah that's what happens when you see the real gory truth chainsaw in living color right in front of you. It changes our outlook rapidly.
I don't blame you one bit for thinking the way you did, it's natural. I see so much of this stuff all the time, but then again I've become hardened and used to it.
|
|
J$
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
|
|
|
Oct 16, 2007 - 02:44am PT
|
I hope the woman who fell is OK and is back on her feet soon.
I'm surprised that no one has mentioned Deception Direct. I think the first traverse to the left is anything but obvious unless you've read the SuperTopo or you're naturally predisposed to wussing out. One of my scariest early trad leading experiences came about while accidentally staying in the first corner for the second pitch. Seemed like the logical way to go and the Falcon guide's sketch of the cliff only showed one corner...
The SuperTopo describes it pretty accurately: "the corner morphs into a tiny seam and the adventure beings. Face moves, protected by RPs, gradually get more difficult and culminate in tenuous 5.9 face moves above questionable gear." I probably stood on the ledge at the top of the seam for about 20 minutes trying to figure out what to do next. I didn't think I could downclimb the seam, I didn't trust my last piece: a shaky, newbie placement, which was probably about 9 or 10 feet below me. I was standing on this nice little ledge with what looked like a blank, bulging face in front of me and some good features off to the left that I couldn't reach from the ledge. My first-of-the-season, warm-up, take-my-friend-up-something-easy climb had suddenly gotten kind of serious.
My buddy, who had never climbed outside before and probably only belayed a few times in the gym, started shouting up at me, asking what was wrong. Not wanting to wig him out (or myself anymore than I already was), I'd shout back "working on it!" and "the routefinding is a little tricky here" and finally "I don't think this is 5.6!", while having a mini personal crisis ("do I really want to climb enough to be in a spot like this", "i don't belong here", "that Falcon guide f**kin sucks"). After quite a while, I calmed down and took my first good look at the rock right in front of my face. Little edges and features started to appear and...hey, I think I can climb this.
Due in large part to own crappy gear placement below, those next few moves off the little ledge felt like the boldest moves I'd ever made, and I was completely humbled when I later got back to the car and discovered the old Dneba guidebook - I'd already decided the Falcon guide WAS sh#t so I didn't care what it said - rated that scary bulge a 5.8. Not wanting to admit even to myself that the moves felt like 5.10 at the time, I penciled in a "5.8+ to 5.9". When the SuperTopo guide for the Leap came out, one of the first routes I looked up was Deception and I felt a little bit vindicated when I saw the 5.9 rating.
I've always thought that Deception was so named because of the route finding. Anyone know? Sorry to hear that someone was injured on this climb. All the discussion of the route brought back some memories of what, in retrospect, was a important learning experience in my personal climbing life and made me think of how easily it could have gone the other way.
Again, best wishes for a speedy recovery!
|
|
troutboy
Trad climber
Newark, DE
|
|
|
Oct 16, 2007 - 08:45am PT
|
I have no way of knowing if this was a factor in this accident, but since we have veered slightly from that path anyway...
I think a major problem with folks transitioning from the gym to outdoor is the lack of routefinding ability. They are accustomed to following a taped sequence. With little outdoor experience, especially on lead, they often do not possess the ability to look at a piece of rock and decide whether it is 5.6 or 5.9 and realize the climb does not likely continue this way.
Now I know a lot of times things look harder than they really are (Gunks roofs, for example), but that's actually the point. An expereinced leader knows Gunks roofs are often a lot easier than they appear and knows exactly what to look for to make a reasonable decision if the presumed line truly matches the grade.
A new leader, without a mentor to steer them to routes with obvious routefinding and lacking the experience to decide potential difficulty based on reading the rock, can easily get off route and in serious trouble.
Couple this with the inability/reluctance for many new leaders to downclimb and there could be serious problems.
TS
|
|
jaystone
Trad climber
EDH, Ca
|
|
|
Oct 16, 2007 - 12:06pm PT
|
I saw friend of mine this weekend who knows the involved party. They were on deception, not deception direct. He didn't give much detail other than she is a new leader and both her ankles were badly broken.
I've climbed that route twice and personally don't think the placements or route finding are tricky. My take is her placements were unfortunately tested and they didn't pass the test.
I send my best wishes for a speedy and clean recovery.
|
|
Wade Icey
Big Wall climber
Indian Caves, CA
|
|
|
Oct 16, 2007 - 12:34pm PT
|
Werner
Do you really get used to it?
|
|
Wade Icey
Big Wall climber
Indian Caves, CA
|
|
|
Oct 16, 2007 - 01:05pm PT
|
i've seen more than three and not as many as Werner. It hasn't become "standard" yet. But then, I didn't have any Vic's with me.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Oct 16, 2007 - 01:12pm PT
|
fattrad: "You still owe me two rescues."
Huh?
Wade, I've seen so much, there's not much more to be seen.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Oct 16, 2007 - 01:31pm PT
|
Thanks very much for doing that fattrad.
You the man ......
|
|
maestro8
Trad climber
Sunnyvale, CA
|
|
|
Oct 16, 2007 - 01:39pm PT
|
Hard to avoid concluding that in the short term the only way
now for people to learn how to lead, is to teach themselves.
What ever happened to mentoring?
|
|
jstan
climber
|
|
|
Oct 16, 2007 - 01:44pm PT
|
Read the stuff above that line and you will see how that conclusion comes about. Hope it isn't right but............
|
|
mack
Trad climber
vermont
|
|
|
Oct 16, 2007 - 02:06pm PT
|
I started climbing with some older, more experienced climbers. When I decided I wanted to start leading I took a 1:1 leader course. Sure I guess it was kind of expensive $200, but it (in my opinion) was well worth it. She had me place a ton of gear on the ground and she evaluated each piece, and told me if it was good (bomber) or bad (crap) and why it was good or bad. And then I did a short lead on toprope with her jugging right next to me and discussing each piece. And I started with easy stuff and worked very slowly up through the grades. Even now, years later I ask my 2nd (if they are experienced leaders) to evaluate my gear and we talk about it..it can be humbling. I 'm going to do some clean aid climbing this Fall to try to further my ability to place good gear every time.
I sure hope the woman who broke her ankles heals up well and knows what happened and why.
|
|
klk
Trad climber
cali
|
|
|
Oct 16, 2007 - 02:13pm PT
|
The newest model for introducing newcomers to trad climbing is commercial, but it isn't the gym. REI and others have begun to sponsor outdoor climbing clinics. The gym market is at or near saturation, but each gym climber who has never been outdoors is a potential REI customer. The outdoor industry hopes that a big chunk of those gym folks take the next step, and since many of them can't or won't hire guides, and there aren't enough motivated volunteer mentors to go around, all the new REI clinics make sense. I won't be surprised if other retailers/manufacturers follow suit. This may indeed open new liability issues, but REI management is beginning to worry that the alternatives are worse. Check out this story-- not much on the new clinics, but it explains the reasons for the new strategy.
http://www.missoulian.com/articles/2007/10/02/news/mtregional/news06.txt
|
|
Prod
Social climber
Charlevoix, MI
|
|
|
Oct 16, 2007 - 02:15pm PT
|
How can you mandate how someone learns to lead climb? There is no set formula that will insure a person has the mechanical and mental make up to go on lead. This is a dangerous sport and people have to take responsibility for themselves. Granted I hate to see anyone get hurt or worse, but there is not a whole lot I can do to stop it. Helping beginners when you see that they need help, or giving advice at a gym when you hear someone talking about venturing to the outside is about it. I'd sure hate to see regulations enter the climbing world....
Chainsaw, I appriciate your compasion and my assumption is that you already do help begginers, which is great. Thanks for opening up a good topic.
Prod.
PS, funny how a guy named "Chainsaw" is the compassionate one.
|
|
jstan
climber
|
|
|
Oct 16, 2007 - 02:52pm PT
|
I had not heard of the climbing clinics. Maybe there is some hope. Anyone's guess as to how the liability issues will work out, but REI surely has had some excellent counsel.
Peter:
We are talking availability not regulation. It is a potentially dangerous activity so everyone has to factor in potential liability.
|
|
Prod
Social climber
Charlevoix, MI
|
|
|
Oct 16, 2007 - 03:11pm PT
|
Hi Jstan,
Guy here, I am not sure what you mean by we are discussing availibilty here? Do you mean we are discussing availibility of teacher/ mentors? My fear of talks like this is that for the "good of the public" climbing becomes a regulated activity with certifications etc...
Stzzo,
I agree completely and I hope my posts do not seem heartless.
Prod.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!