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feelio Babar
Trad climber
Sneaking up behind you...
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here's a tip...don't try and make a living guiding.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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I'm a little tighter with the tipping. 20-25% sounds like the top end unless the base fee was rediculously low (Thailand..) or something extraordinary happened - 10% a minimum (50 bucks the minimum, really..). The $1200 fee with $800 tip - I'd be interested to hear if that was typical. I know it happens from time to time, but the guides I talk to just as often get nothing at all. Nada. In the end, with the above guidelines, I guess it just depends. Some places are a little more expensive with the base fee, maybe it's a larger group of people so less individualized and more people giving tips, maybe someone did a good or bad job - it just depends. But, the pay is the pay. Life is full of choices. I'd like to earn more money, too, and some days feel like I'm undervalued and overworked, but I made my choices about it all and know where the door is.
JLP
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Wally,
Yes, $1,200 in ‘87; I may have received a little more the next year for the Salathe. I think we collectively bumped the fee for El Cap to about $1,600 (guides take) at the end of the season in ’88. I proposed at the time taking it straight to $3000 (gross fee to the client, with $1,800 representing the guide's take), and the director said, "hey, you're going to price yourself out of a job": to which I replied, “bring it on”).
And yes, JLP,
The $800 tip was way off the charts: that was a very rich client, who was paying me to guide her favorite Italian guide. And I would say at that time a culture of tipping was virtually nonexistent. Very occasionally I would get a nice tip. And yes, we all knew that there was no long-standing legacy of guiding in this country upon which to leverage a consummate wage. Eventually I found the door.
I still have a couple of clients from that era and today they are old friends.
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wbw
climber
'cross the great divide
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If I remember correctly from my guiding days, tipping your guide with sex is likely most appreciated. Makes the math on tipping easier, too.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Most guides would rather work than not work, so if you can barely afford to go, better to go and tip small or not at all.
Otherwise, if the fees are in line with your other expenses, tip what you feel and can afford. It beats supporting walmart and Mcdonalds.
Peace
Karl
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Maysho
climber
Truckee, CA
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My era as a full time guide was about the same as the eloquent Tarbousier's, and some fine times were had working together at YMS, eh Roy!
The tipping culture has really changed. In the early 80's it was kind of rare, I think we were just as skilled, supportive, and nice but it often seemed like the clients felt they would somehow cheapen the experience by doing something as crass as offering a bit of cash at the end of it.
A number of times I had the experience of sharing clients in the same day with my waitress girlfriend. Some father would hug me, slightly teary eyed, saying the day had been a real breakthrough for his kids and family, leaving me with sincere appreciation, then they would sit on Lynda's restaurant station, give her a bunch of grief, but leave her $20 bucks.
These days the specialized adventure service economy is more entrenched, and tipping seems the norm. 99% of my guiding these days is with teenagers, and I get small grants from the county to support the work. Never get a cash tip but I find it more rewarding in many ways.
I have guided the Nose four times and Half Dome three, pretty sure I got everyone beat for the lowest big wall pay from YMS. I think the first client on the Nose in 83 or 84 was charged $700, and I got $420!
I disagree with the disparagement of those who would seek to follow an expert up the Nose. There is a lot involved with becoming competent in that setting. I think of an analogy with sailing. If I jumped on a yacht to crew a trip to Hawaii, I would work hard to learn new skills and carefully follow instruction, I would be scared and thrilled and overwhelmed at times, I would never make the decisions or lead the process, but I would find it a total adventure none the less.
As with any job, finding a larger vision and context for what you are doing helps to mitigate low pay. Early on in Yosemite I realized I was not just a climbing or skiing guide, but someone who could design, facilitate and on the best days even manifest transformational experiences. Self delusional I may be, but this idea has kept me motivated through a lot of interesting, underfunded yet rewarding work, and some business wins and losses.
Peter
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Yeah.
I used to tell myself that too.
Then I started making REAL money elsewhere.
LOL
cheers Peter
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Gimp
Trad climber
Grand Junction
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Sitting here in my office paying bills and checking the mail after a night on call. To keep things in perspective in the current economy. Spent 6 hours in the ED sewing up everything from lip lacs to a machete wound to the head last night from 10 pm to 4 am. Pay $0.00 since all were uninsured and unemployed.
Just opened a check for a workers comp thumb replant in a 23 year old who didn't not know how to run a chop saw (he's not dating one of my front desk girls). $1099.00.
Your pay dosen't look so bad!!
As an aside, despite it all I still like what I do.
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Ola Girl
Trad climber
Thousand Oaks, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 8, 2007 - 07:49pm PT
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To clarify…Am I going to pay a guide $3,200 + tip to take me up El Cap? Yes. Will I feel like I’m cheating because I’m not leading half of the pitches? Yes. Do I care? No.
Why pay a guide? There are plenty of people I would climb a 500’ trad route with, but there are only 2 people I would trust to climb a 3,000’ big wall route with. One of them has chronic injuries and no desire to climb El Cap, and the other one started a family and does not climb much anymore. I value my life too much to roam around Camp 4 looking for any old John or Jane Doe big wall partner. I’d rather pay a guide from a well-known climbing school because I know they have a reputation to uphold, and their intentions are to keep us both as safe as possible while also having a good time, (in the clean sense of the word.)
Am I doing this to impress my friends? No. Most of my friends do not even know what El Cap is so would not be impressed anyway. I am doing this for one simple reason – because I want to do it. What I will lose by not leading part of the route myself I will gain in peace of mind by not having to fret about the person at the other end of the rope. I am just thankful there are people willing to put their life on the line for people like me, and I think they deserve a good tip.
Thanks to all of you for the great tipping advice and encouragement (and also the comedy relief!)
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Peter wrote
"As with any job, finding a larger vision and context for what you are doing helps to mitigate low pay. Early on in Yosemite I realized I was not just a climbing or skiing guide, but someone who could design, facilitate and on the best days even manifest transformational experiences"
Absolutely. Well Said
Karl
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Zander
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Ola Girl,
Right on. Have a great time on the route!
Report back and let us know how it went.
Zander
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Lynne Wolfe
Trad climber
Driggs, ID
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Well after working in the Tetons for almost 20 years I generally suggest that clients start off with the same percentages as for restaurant tipping (15-20%). I have had remarkable tips from clients that I thought were dirt bags, and been stiffed by millionaires. our guide service has a sign posted in the office saying that " We regret we can no longer use your credit card to provide gratuity to the guides." or some such. i think it is a nice way to remind clients that gratuities are accepted and welcomed.
Folks that are used to being clients appreciate it when you make it a part of the goodbye and thank you ritual to offer your card to them and a few succinct words- but you guys all know that part, right up there with the client saying "let me take you to dinner or the bar" And I am married these days- sex as a tip, icky.
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10b4me
climber
Site C4 in TMCG
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Michelle,
good luck, be safe, and have fun.
are you going with Jeff?
maybe I will see you at Xroads so you can tell me how it went.
10b4me
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Ola Girl
Trad climber
Thousand Oaks, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 9, 2007 - 10:02am PT
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Hey Steve,
No, I don't think Jeff guides big walls, but I'm certainly going to send him an e-mail and get the scoop on the guides who do. I'll be doing some training with guides down here first before I go to YMS so I haven't contacted them yet other than to find out it's $3,200 for The Nose. I'm not one of those millionaire clients so I have to save up for this - I've got to factor the tip into my budget so that's why the forum post. I think I've got a pretty good idea of my expenses now thanks to the folks with the informative posts! You've been most helpful!
Michelle
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Holdplease2
Big Wall climber
Yosemite area
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Michele:
With all that you'll be learning before you go, and from the guide on the Nose, you might consider planning to climb another wall right in the Valley after the Nose. Chances are, you'll be more than ready by then. This would save you airfare (avoiding a second trip), and give you a chance to climb one on your own, too.
You're probably going to learn more and ask more of the "right" questions when you're on the Nose if you know you're learning with another climb coming up.
Anyway, have a great time on the Nose. I just saw two YMS guides heading up the nose the other day with two dudes that just got back from Iraq. I bet they're up there now. Both of the guides were incredibly experienced climbers with great reputations and really amazing people. What an awesome learning opportunity.
Enjoy your climb!
-Kate.
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Chicken Skinner
Trad climber
Yosemite
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Ola Girl,
Only a few of the YMS guides will guide big walls and it is not surprising why this is so. It is hard work and a serious responsibility. I believe it currently costs $3,300 and the guide gets $1,800. I used to make about three hundred a day but after factoring in food, training, wear and tear on my gear, prep time, and dropped gear, it usually worked out to about $200 a day. That is not much for a 24 hour a day job. Teaching a full class, I could make more in a 6-7 hour day and be home for dinner in the evenings. I did enjoy being up there and helping people make their dreams come true. It is a rewarding job.
If you can, request Scott and have fun.
Ken
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GhoulweJ
Trad climber
Sacramento, CA
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I second that ken.
Request Scott.
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oldcragger
Trad climber
Truckee,CA
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As another season winds down, I'm in the same situation as Michelle.
Short of paying a commercial guide $3200+ to haul you up the Captain, is it possible to "contract" a partner/guide with previous ascents to share leads and be a ropegun if necessary??
I've been "planning" to climb The Nose for 22 years. Learned to aid on S. Face of the Column and Half Dome in the 80's. Had a few weather aborted attempts but only as far as top of Sickle Ledge. For a variety of reasons (family, job, relocations, injuries, partner issues...) I haven't been back on it but it's still a goal. The problem is that it's hard enough to find partners willing to climb multi-pitch "trad" rather than boulder, let alone learn aid techniques and commit to a Wall (even if it is a trade route). So another year passes, the skills diminish and the goal fades a little more...
Michael
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Zetedog
Trad climber
PGH, PA
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I think I have used about 10 different guides now. I traveled 100% for my first job out of undergrad, and would often not know where and when I would be with enough time to round up partners, route guides, scope areas, etc. Using guide services was great as I only had to pack my shoes and harness, and they almost always had people available mid-week with little to no notice.
As the consumer, my perspective is this:
1) I had a job that paid real money
2) The guide had a job that didn't pay real money
3) Paying for a guide is expensive, and often a lot of that money doesn't end up in the guide's pocket.
4) The guide chose a job knowing the money sucked.
5) Just like any profession, not everyone is good at their job.
That said, I chipped in at least 50-150 bucks a day + a dinner and beer to the guide, regardless of the cost of the check I wrote to the company, with two notable exceptions.
I had one guide so bad that I walked away at the end of the day. Most guides are good at understanding your ability and designing/changing the day based upon that. This dude couldn't get it through his head that I was experienced and didn't want to spend the day top-roping 5.6's. He was also rude, dismissive, and started the trying to climb without his harness doubled back.
I had another guide that was terrific, and upon learning that I was free the next day, offered to take me climbing again even though it was his day off. We went, and I paid him the same amount that I would have paid the company.
Most experiences I had were great. The guide needs to earn the tip, and don't hesitate to pay more if they earn it.
ToddE.
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Dr.Kodos
Trad climber
Tennessee
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I recommend a solid push instead of just tipping them.
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