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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Aug 26, 2007 - 09:57pm PT
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Post the pictures please Pete!
Do you have any taken at more or less the same spots as those posted from the FA?
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nick d
Trad climber
nm
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Aug 26, 2007 - 10:21pm PT
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Thanks for posting this up, Steve! It is always impressive to think back on how heavy duty the pioneers really were,
I notice that many contemporary climbers are readily willing to put each other down for their percieved lack of style, but the reality of it is that none of their accomplishments hold a candle to the commitment displayed by those in earlier days.
Lets all remember that they could not call Werner and co. on a cell phone if things got necky. How many of you would be willing to make the same commitment now? I am pretty sure not too many present day spraylords would be heading up there.
PTPP is willing to run down Skinner for bolting to free climb (of which I don't approve) but I notice in another thread he is recommending to one of his friends that he nail up Mescalito. It's my understanding that good style on this route is to climb it clean.
So, it's ok to hammer the rock if it's one of your friends doing it, but not if it's someone you don't like?
Just curious about that.
Michael
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gunsmoke
Trad climber
Clackamas, Oregon
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Aug 26, 2007 - 10:36pm PT
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Michael, Your PTPP criticism is mixing apples with oranges.
Major Edit:
The point is that, as a basic principle, a climb is what it is at the time of the FA; other parties shouldn’t come along and presume to have the right to change it. Mescalito is a nice, mid-level trade route. Just because someone comes along and manages to do it clean, does that mean that everyone else has now got to face multiple 50 footers to do the route in the new style? I say no. To say yes is to say that the basic nature of the climb is now changed, only hardmen may apply. DW, on the other hand, has been an entry level EC route for decades. But Skinner changes all that by taking a route available to the masses and turns it into an elite free route, doable by less than 1% of the climbing population. “Don’t clip the bolts,” you say. Great response, for a robot. I’m not a robot. If I’m on a climb and a fat bolt is staring me in the face, the essence of my experience is changed, and in the case of DW not changed for the better.
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nick d
Trad climber
nm
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Aug 26, 2007 - 11:07pm PT
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Gunsmoke, your post exactly illustrates my point about flexible ethics. Mescalito was not a "mid level trade route" at its inception. It was cutting edge aid. Now the cracks have been hammered to the point that they accept nuts.
It seems to me that if you wanted to experience the same kind of risk the first ascenders took you would be clean aiding it. Isn't hammering it now degrading it for no reason, other than adding it to your tick list?
I said I did not approve of Todd's climbing ethics; he was my pal and I let him know my opinion on numerous occasions. I'm just curious how come he gets slammed and Pete's buddy gets the ok.
Also, {"Don’t clip the bolts," you say.} Sorry, but could you point out to me where I wrote that? I must have, since you put it in quotation marks.
Michael
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gunsmoke
Trad climber
Clackamas, Oregon
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Aug 26, 2007 - 11:46pm PT
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Michael, Sorry for seeming to attribute “Don’t clip the bolts” to you. I just anticipated the response, guess I’ve heard it too many times before. That Skinner bolts DW can’t be justified, IMHO. As far as Mescalito goes, seems that the FA happened in 73, preceding PO and thereby giving some credence to your view. Nonetheless, Mescalito was a mid-level route throughout the 80’s and 90’s, and I doubt that the FA party was taking 50 footers (maybe someone can come forward to correct that assumption), which seems to be the standard you’re calling for. The main reason for Mescalito falling from the top tier was that other climbs like PO and the Sea, both done later that decade, raised the bar way past Mescalito, thereby make it no longer “cutting edge.” Mescalito has been what it’s been for about the last 30 of its 35 years, and nailing on it is not an example of flexible ethics.
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nick d
Trad climber
nm
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Aug 27, 2007 - 12:30am PT
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I don't think your reasoning is correct. Mescalito actually got easier. It was originally rated A4, and I think that is because it had some very difficult thin cracks and seams as well as some scary hooking.
It has been hammered so much that now there are pin scars where there were once only seams. I think the current rating on it is usually given as C3, which implies fairly difficult clean aiding.
This is just another example of modern climbers feeling entitled to ticking off climbs that are, in reality, beyond their abilities. Continuing to hammer things in only destroys the crack systems more.
I also agree that installing bolt ladders next to cracks to enable free attempts is wrong, but that, unfortunately, is the legacy of the whole sport climbing movement.
Michael
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 28, 2007 - 11:08am PT
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"Pound a pin, save some skin." Same old lame, tired crap that I have been hearing for thirty years.
"Pitons have been the great equalizer in American climbing. By liberally using them it was possible to get in over ones head and by more liberally using them to get out again." YC,TF and DR 1972
The heavy hand has never been acceptable and yet we collectively endure the scarring. Everybody is responsible for their actions and should be willing to be called to account for them if climbing is to evolve.
Enough vitriol, back to the Golden Age........
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Aug 28, 2007 - 12:54pm PT
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Pete's not gonna post pics... He *still* owes us a TR from the Sheep Ranch. I think there's a saying to the tune of "Over deliver under promise".... All talk, I tell ya! ;)
See ya in a few weeks, Pete!
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BadInfluence
Mountain climber
Dak side
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Aug 28, 2007 - 01:09pm PT
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does that crack in the roof go free?
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 28, 2007 - 10:47pm PT
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After a fashion....
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 1, 2007 - 01:39pm PT
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In 1964, Royal Robbins and Tom Frost did the second ascent of the Dihedral Wall in five days. Despite an abundance of detailed information in the published accounts of the FA, significant details got overlooked. In order to conserve bolt hangers, the FA party left three dozen or so bare studs behind. Ed Cooper had reasoned that the 1/4" nuts would have weathered in place preventing the next party from adding hangers but no mention of the need for nuts or hangers appeared anywhere! By mere luck, Royal and Tom brought six nuts along and were able to deal with the challenge.
Somehow the bolt total was also underreported by the FA party but, as was their customn due to constant improvements in equipment, Royal and Tom removed over a dozen unnecessary bolts to essentially restore the reported number.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Two of the three on the FA of the Dihedral were Jim Baldwin and Ed Cooper. They'd done the FA of the Grand Wall on the Stawamus Chief a few years earlier, and in doing so created a long bolt ladder leading to the base of the Split Pillar. About 100 metres worth of bolts, on a steep slab. That's a lot of bolts, and hangars. They used mostly 3/16" bolts, and removed the (mostly home made) hangars from about 2/3 of them, though in most cases left the nuts on.
I first did the route in 1974, before the Split Pillar had been freed, or the approach via Mercy Me had been discovered. There wasn't really enough room behind the by then rusty nuts to even loop a tie off, so the trick was to make up a bunch of loops using parachute cord, and use them. Naturally they got a bit frayed. At least by then some of the bolts, and the belay bolts, had been replaced by "reliable" 1/4" Rawl split shafts and decent hangars.
Anyway, it may have been the precedent for their removing hangars from Dihedral Wall bolt ladders. That, and limited budget for equipment. Not much later, people started using bat hooks and eventually dowels, interspersed with bolts - much the same effect.
The Grand Wall bolt ladder is now recognized as a historical artefact.
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Jonny D
Social climber
Lost Angelez, Kalifornia
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thanks for the post SG, dihedral was my first wall and unfortunatelly we had to bail at thanksgiving ledge due to bad weather and giant bushes clogging up the last pitches (this was mid april). does anyone had photos of those last pitches?
thanks again, excellent post!
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 1, 2007 - 03:16pm PT
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The rumors of excessive bolting on the Grand Wall contributed significantly to the cool reception given the first team of non-locals to venture on El Cap. The missing nuts were a curious source of adventure for several parties as I will be posting later.
3/16" bolts by the sea----Yikes!!!
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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The ledge....Dihedral Wall.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 1, 2007 - 05:20pm PT
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Nice spread and old school haulbag Todd!
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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The Troll!
Did he keep his cigarettes in a tuperware on that one Todd?
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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The Troll ran out of smokes the last day of the climb;..he was crabby on the hike out. We did that climb 27 years ago;......he was an excellent wall partner and we had a great time on the climb.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 3, 2007 - 01:16pm PT
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And now to the third ascent. From Summit Sept 1968.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 7, 2007 - 10:33am PT
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Bump for the extras.......
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