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Loom
climber
The Whiteboard Jungle
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Roy and Walt make good points.
What you decide to keep, cut or expand should be determined by asking yourself what your main purposes are.
I’m just going to throw some ideas out there. You may not want to use them, but maybe you can riff off of them and come up with something that works for you.
There are several relationships (and conflicts) in the story. You could choose to cut Dale's wife and John's girlfriend from the story. Then focus more on the climbing partner relationship (though not in the way Wanda suggests).
You could focus on the relationship that John has with the mountain (if so, you would probably be better off dropping the non-climber info and writing for a climber audience). You could make it very clear that John is an unreliable narrator, and you could make his internal conflicts (a self-deceptive relationship he has with himself) the center of the story.
Who really is his baby(s)?
You might want to make the story a few pages longer. You might shift between all the relationships listed above. The question of whether John loves Jenna more or less than the mountains does not seem to be the key. For some men Jenna herself might be enough. Why not for John or Dale?
If you follow the path of expansion you might want to create something that parallels your (authoritative) explanations of climbing for non-climbers. Something where John gives his (inept) theories on male/female relationships, his (idealistic) theories on what constitutes a good climbing partnership.
good luck,
Scott Lennox
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Loom
climber
The Whiteboard Jungle
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Jello,
I didn't see your last posts until I posted mine. This definitely makes more sense as a first chapter than as a short story.
Looking forward to reading more. Err, well, not the homersexual activity (nttatwwt) per se, but whatever you want to write about I'll take a gander.
SL
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Jello
Social climber
No Ut
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 8, 2007 - 01:05am PT
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Thanks,Loom, your comments are still very useful.
-Jeff
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James
climber
A tent in the redwoods
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Scott has a good point. What is this story really about- Problems with ladies, climbing partnership, or just being gripped in the mountains?
Climbers epicing in a storm on the mountain has been written about a million times. The story needs more strength to be a good read.
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pda2540
climber
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Seems a lot like a Clinton McKinzie story on an initial pass through. Tough guy, girl problems, battle with weather on the Diamond. I'm just waiting for Antonio Burns to show up. What will be different here?
But you might get something new going here. Keep trying!
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couchmaster
climber
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Walt, thats world class writing. Come on. I bet you're the type who would watch the Miss Universe contest and say: "Hey, that Miss Brazil, I wouldn't do her, she's got a pimple on her thigh."
Please!
Jeff, you rock the house! Although I still think Largo is the standard of excellence and will never believe otherwise, that's world class writing and better than 99 percent of the stuff getting published.
I want chapter 2 I want chapter 2 I want chapter 2 !!
Mostly I wanted to thank you for sharing it with us.
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Jello
Social climber
No Ut
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 8, 2007 - 10:03am PT
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Thanks for reading and commenting, James. Because it's a chapter from an intended book, not a short story, character, conflict and resolution may take longer to gel and may not be fully esplored in chapter one. But I hear what you're saying. I feel it's lacking something vital, too.
Pda, I don't know Clinton McKinzie. I'll have to get one of his books so I can understand your reference.
And Couch, thank you for the glowing appreciation. I know I can make the chapter better, but if it left you hungry for the next, that was its' purpose and my intention.
Thanks all for your time and thoughtful comments.
Jello
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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It is obviously a great challenge to construct taught fiction; if I were to take it on, one of the things I'd do is to start reading the fiction in The New Yorker every week.
Good luck Jello.
We wan't to see you write lots more.
Saddle up.
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pc
climber
East of Seattle
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Not much, Jello. Very good read. I was willing John to head down right off the bat...(but what fun would that be ;)
It left me wanting more of the story, before and after, so count me in for the book.
pc
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MikeL
climber
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I agree with Gunks Guy, that is, with his criticisms of the writing as story.
You now say that your story is not a true story but that it is an introduction or the beginning of a larger story. If so, then it's difficult to provide good feedback on an introduction without knowing the entire story (which you haven't told us). Is your introduction whispering or anticipating your complete story?
What's lacking for me is insight. Insight, not information, is the audience's reward for paying attention.
Action is character (F. Scott Fitzgerald). You have lots of action, but it's not clear where and how the protagonist does / will change? Are you intending to leave loose ends or enigmas for us to ponder with this introduction? If so, I missed them.
I think your descriptions are good, but I missed them serving story.
Cheers, Jello. It's gutsy to put one's writing up for criticism. I think it takes courage and selflessness.
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pda2540
climber
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If you do check out McKinzie, it was either "Point of Law" or "Edge of Justice" that I was referring to. One was a prequel to the other. The Burns brothers. Both books also struggle with the attempt to explain technical climbing aspects to a lay audience.
"About ten years ago I was asked by an agent to develop a book based on a real life experience, that got into all the technical aspects of climbing, while telling a compelling story." Maybe somebody approach McKinzie after you? Although his turned into a novel as well.
Ditto on having the courage to do this and put it out for comment. Hats off. Keep at it.
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Gunks Guy
Trad climber
Rhinebeck, NY
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Jeff,
I agree with Mike L and PDA, it takes guts to lay out a story for the whole world to pick apart. Kudos to you.
Knowing this is the first chapter to a book certainly sheds light on why it isn't as compact as one would like in a short story. As MikeL pointed out, it's a little difficult not knowing where you are going. But I'll throw out some more suggestions now that I know it's the intro to a book.
My biggest criticism is that I don't really feel anything for the characters. They seem like a couple of good buds out on a climbing adventure. They have some relationship problems. And that's about it. You need to give me a reason to want to keep reading.
You need to give me a character that I care about. I may or may not like him, but I must care about what happens next to him. He's probably not perfect, because if he is I probably won't believe him. You don't have to tell me a lot about him. It's probably better if you don't. Save it to reveal it to me as the story unfolds.
I am assuming that would be John, although it could just as easily be Dale. You give us a lot of information and a lot of action in the first chapter. For me, that tends to overwhelm the characters. I want to know who John is. What's driving him? What does he love? What does he despise? Does he have some fatal flaw that you can hint at to us.
And for all the stuff you need to tell me about who John is, don't tell me, show me.
An example of this where you did both showing and telling was with Dale. Early on Dale says:
“But it’s going to take some time to piece it together and we’ve got a storm coming on,” he cut me off, holding up his hand, pausing, and then continuing. “We could follow Table ledge to the left here and be off The Diamond before the storm hits,” he said, his sinewy arm indicating the direction he wanted to go.
Later on you say:
A physicist by profession, Dale is a cautious climber who likes to analyze every move.
The first piece is great. It carries the story forward and conveys an important piece of information about Dale's nature. The second piece falls much flatter. It's redundant, and it's not nearly as vibrant as when you show us Dale's character through his reluctance to carry on with the original climb.
Enough for now. If you want more, just ask.
Walt
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WBraun
climber
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I don't know nothing about English literature nor composition.
When I read it I got day mares from some of my epics in lightning storms from past climbs.
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Jello
Social climber
No Ut
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 8, 2007 - 10:56pm PT
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Great feedback. Leaves me much to ponder. Although I'm surprised at you literary sort who didn't immediately grasp the import of the title: CHAPTER 1! And some still don't seem to get that it's an attempt at fiction, not a true story. hehe! I was asked to do an explication of the mysterious techniques (to the lay public), gear, mind-set and social realities of climbing and climbers, utilizing hard facts and drawing from personal experience to bring it home to the non-climber.
I think I've got the veracity of storm and technique down, judging by the response of Werner, Happi and others. It's just the nuances of personality, feeling and insight that are difficult for me.
But I am learning to open up. And it's meant to be a book-length project, with time to explore many themes and follow many threads on the way to weaving a tapestry worthy of our following.
Thanks again
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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hey there jello.... here is some disjointed thoughts...
say, enjoy yourself while you're writing... and have fun... main point... go with your gut feelings.. the, you can always backtrack, rearrange, add, or delete... etc....
then, you can check if you need to add chapters if there are tie-ins that are missing, or whatever....who knows perhaps you may want to look up story formats, meaning, what every story "should" have...
i didnt do that format though, etc... but when i went to check out the formats that are expected to appear in novels, it had all fell into place, on its own---so that is why i say... go with gut feelings first... if anything is wrong, you can still fix it....but if you try purposely to "do it to law"--you could frustrate yourself....some folks, do swear by outlines, though... etc...(good linking notes, one may say)
i enjoyed writing my novels, and still enjoy the doing the short stories based on them....
but it is NO FUN at times, to do the over and over editing for type o's, etc, ..... hard times, man.... but sure worth it...
i did have my own check list as to historic events in the characters lives, though, as i am not good with numbers, and could have made major mess-ups... so:
lots of folks make a character sheet, listing all about characters... i never did til i was done, and doing short stories, and really needed it...
keep note paper around on hand... you may get inspired for good lines and you dont want to forget them... brainstorm on occasion, if it comes...if you get stuck, go climb a rock...etc...hmmm, or a tree, perhaps... or have a cup of coffee or a good shot of whiskey... hmmm, or kick a can... shoot some basksets, whatever... lay down and go to sleep--you never know...
the awful part then come---editing---as you find mistakes you could have sworn multiplied over night...this can go on for months, and for some folks, years (if they dont like their story).... months, if it is for errors only, and you have help, from others to read for mistakes, etc....
mine "soon to be published" has some type o's that surfaced, as i did it on my own...had no one to help... but i had this gut feeling that it was time to get the intro stories OUT.... with a self publish....
the novels will have to wait, as too much money and editing is involved...and i cant afford to find mistakes, even though, sadly i found a few in this one---but could not pay to refix, by then...
good luck, hope it comes out to be something you will plan to use for the enjoyment of others reading pleasures...
say, it is YOUR writing, so it should be from your heart... and have that "jello" taste to it...
oh, myyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy..... yes, have fun!
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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hey there jello... say, as to also writing to non-climbers, your spelling it out well, as i am a non-climber, and i caught your drift... well, now all you got to do is keep building your story, and tie it all into relating to the whole--what ever it will turn out to be.... keep on trucking as the old saying goes...
say, you did choose a writing it in the "i" or first person, is that called... that is hard to do, but you are suceeding....way to go...
say, since you have to write from what you see, hear, and know, etc... it is very limited framework to work to work in....you've been doing very well that way...
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Jello
Social climber
No Ut
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 9, 2007 - 01:20am PT
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Thanks, neebee. You inspire me.
-Jeff
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MikeL
climber
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Werner wrote: "When I read it I got day mares from some of my epics in lightning storms from past climbs."
Ok, then the readers need to be experienced climbers. Jello indicated that was not supposed to be his audience.
Jello wrote: "I'm surprised at you literary sort who didn't immediately grasp the import of the title: CHAPTER 1!"
Jello, with all due respect, there is no significant import or meaning in the words "Chapter 1" for anyone (unless you are an editor). I find those words in every novel or book written, and what do they mean? They mean, at most, "beginning." Would anyone or everyone want to read the beginning of any or every book (thriller, adventure, heart-throb romance, scientific exposition, etc.)? Not without some kind of payoff.
A person doesn't have to be a literary sort to expect a story to have some kind of payoff for giving up his or her time to read it. That's the deal in fiction. Readers have to be hooked and then entertained emotionally. There are guidelines on how that usually gets done. If interested you could look at "Story" by Robert McKee (about scriptwriting, but still somewhat relevant) or "The Art of Dramatic Writing" by Lajos Egri. There are others.
Most readers are not all that interested in reading about the technical aspects of climbing. Most of us are much more interested in the human drama that revolves around character development, reversals, insights, "how the world really works"--or should.
There are accepted patterns that constitute various plot lines (romance, tragedy, etc.). That doesn't mean they are at all easy to construct and implement. Look around. Most plot lines in film, novels, and short stories are unimaginative, dead, or an insult to the most rudimentary intelligence. Why, when anyone can read about what the basics to story are? Because the basics are very difficult to implement consistently and elegantly. Just because you know what you should do doesn't mean you can. Most writers are unimaginative, undisciplined (can't oonstruct a worthy plotline), and addicted to cliches. I'm not saying you are.
I'd love to be able to write fiction, and in fact I desperately need those skills in writing up some qualitative research, but the experience has been extremely difficult for me.
I respect anyone who even tries.
"The first draft of anything is sh*t."
(Hemingway)
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Jello
Social climber
No Ut
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 9, 2007 - 01:40am PT
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Totally recieving your input, MikeL.
Thanks. I mean it.
-Jeff
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WBraun
climber
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Excellent idea Mike.
My new book be released soon ....
Mo-Mentum
Mo in the beginning was suffering terribly in the womb until he met Mentum. Without Mentum there was no question of leaving to learn the ropes of life.
Thus together they became one to carry over each others weakness. They plotted their escape from the terrible confined space of blood and all other nasty things in that womb.
But still they had to confide in the mother for their ultimate release.
It all began one ...........
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