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Bill
climber
San Francisco
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Jul 29, 2007 - 02:50pm PT
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Precise aiming doesn't imply anything. I think the shooter(s) would have aimed just as precisely if they thought Tillman was Taliban as they would if they had intended to commit murder.
Again, I think it's entirely possible that this was a deliberate killing, but I think all the tight grouping proves is that they were good shots.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jul 29, 2007 - 07:16pm PT
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A tight group in the head suggests he was already down.
Otherwise he would fall with the first shot.
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Ouch!
climber
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Jul 29, 2007 - 07:23pm PT
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That's right, Ron. Weird. Unless three people shot at the same instant.
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nature
climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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Jul 29, 2007 - 07:57pm PT
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What if Pat was on the ground taking cover and simply looking up? Granted, he apparently saw from ten yards away an M16 pointed at his mellon.
And Ron, those M16s are auto, no? A triple burst would be how far apart in timing?
I can't buy the notion (Bill) that the shooter thought he was Talliban. Not given the evidence that is starting to come out - no other US soldier or US equipment was hit by enemy fire. Are they that bad of shots OR was there simply no enemy fire. If it's the latter (still not sure) that I really have a hard time believing he was mistaken for Talliban. It's one thing if you take it to the back or back of the head. But point blank to the face? We've all seen Picts of what Pat looked like - that's a face that would be hard to be mistaken for an enemy (and yeah, sure, he could have had his face painted - but from 10 meters it can't be that hard to figure out he's one of our guys)
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Hootervillian
climber
the Hooterville World-Guardian
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Jul 29, 2007 - 09:43pm PT
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mdavid says- Clark was clearly speculating and never stated there was any evidence of his comrades taking him out.
He is also leading a dem pac and has lots of reasons to play these kinds of games. I just can't believe he went this far.
If you guys think his fellow Rangers would take him out over any political pressures you seriously need to get the tin hats out. .......
but you can believe what you'd like, wes is just trying to gather more into the dem fold.
your right, Clark was merely calling for an investigation in the face of some obvious lies. now the question is, why is it easier for some to question Clark,
a retired four-star general of the United States Army. Clark was valedictorian of his class at West Point, was awarded a Rhodes Scholarship to the University of Oxford where he obtained a degree in PPE, and later graduated from the Command and General Staff College with a master's degree in military science. He spent 34 years in the Army and the Department of Defense, receiving many military decorations, several honorary knighthoods, and a Presidential Medal of Freedom.
and imply that he is somehow politically in cahoots at the expense of the sacrifice of military personnel for demanding an investigation, than it is to simply inquire as to the reasons for no investigation and a coverup?
i hope you brought enough tin foil for everybody....
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Bill
climber
San Francisco
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Jul 30, 2007 - 03:03am PT
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I didn't say the shooter(s) thought he was Taliban, I said that the tight grouping didn't prove, or even suggest that they didn't. The tight grouping just proves they were good shots, it doesn't prove whether or not they knew who they were shooting at.
I think it was probably murder, but I doubt we'll ever know.
Ron, the docs said the bullets were fired from about 10 yards away.
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426
Sport climber
Buzzard Point, TN
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Jul 30, 2007 - 09:24am PT
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"This (Iraq) war is so fscking illegal..."
(Pat Tillman)
"And we all said, ‘Yeah.’ That’s who he was. He totally was against Bush.” Spc. Russell Baer.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jul 30, 2007 - 11:18am PT
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Even from 10 yards a three round burst in full auto would climb rather than group.
The (little) evidence available to me suggests three quickly placed rounds on an already down Tillman, or else two follow up taps from close enough to make head shots on possibly uneven terrain.
What calibre rounds created the wounds? That should be a telling point.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jul 30, 2007 - 11:30am PT
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Piton Ron is right, a 3 shot burst could certainly hit a person before they would fall but they would not be tightly grouped. They would most certainly rise with each shot. What about 3 independent
marksmen all firing nearly simultaneously? Makes me wonder.
Caliber of round would certainly be a telling factor as sharpshooters and ground troops use very different weapons. However I am fairly sure all forensic evidence has been willfully destroyed.
Even in the heat of a fire fight (assuming there even was one) it is almost impossible to believe he was mistaken for a Talliban insurgent.
Like Russian soldiers in WW2 who were more afraid of their own commanders than the German troops I think there are a lot of our "best and brightest" who fear retaliation for speaking out more than insurgents.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Jul 30, 2007 - 11:35am PT
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Don't those guys usually wear forehead covering helmets?
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jul 30, 2007 - 11:38am PT
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A helmet won't stop a direct round.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jul 30, 2007 - 11:41am PT
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If Tillman was so against the war, why did he leave a great football career to join the Army Rangers who he knew were going to deploy to Afghanistan? Doesn't make too much sense to me.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jul 30, 2007 - 11:42am PT
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The possibility of three independent shooters hitting a non-prone person in the forehead with a tight group so simultaneously that Tillman didn't even have time to physically relocate as a result of impact force is next to nil outside of a staged firing squad type execution.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jul 30, 2007 - 12:11pm PT
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He Wanted to go since his brother was going. He wanted to serve America in it's supposed hour of need. I don't think he was against the war until he got there and realized what a sham it was.
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paganmonkeyboy
Trad climber
the blighted lands of hatu
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 30, 2007 - 12:13pm PT
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" If Tillman was so against the war, why did he leave a great football career to join the Army Rangers who he knew were going to deploy to Afghanistan? Doesn't make too much sense to me. "
you are confusing iraq, which had nothing to do with 9-11, with afghanistan. common mistake, given the propaganda being flung by our media and current ruling elite...
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jul 30, 2007 - 12:17pm PT
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All the more reason for Americans to be ashamed if they don't know the difference.
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paganmonkeyboy
Trad climber
the blighted lands of hatu
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 30, 2007 - 12:35pm PT
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with all due respect dingus
I'm not sure opposing a particular war is the same as peacenik.
my friends and family serve and have served. if my uncle took three to the head and there was a cover up, i'd be *livid*. i don't care if its dems, repubs, or the queen of f*#king sheba in the white house...
-tom
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426
Sport climber
Buzzard Point, TN
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Jul 30, 2007 - 01:10pm PT
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BR:"If Tillman was so against the war, why did he leave a great football career to join the Army Rangers who he knew were going to deploy to Afghanistan? Doesn't make too much sense to me."
Uh, if you read the quote, he was upset at the Iraq War...an open John Kerry supporter about to meet with Noam Chomsky...
For what it's worth...
Lying to Keith; protecting it's own?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jul 30, 2007 - 02:54pm PT
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Well khanom, in Afgahnistan we actually did a little good.
But Iraq?
I really think Bill Maher hit the nail on the head when he said, "its like losing your keys in the garage, but looking for them in the living roon because the light is so much better."
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paganmonkeyboy
Trad climber
the blighted lands of hatu
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 30, 2007 - 03:04pm PT
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well, if you were a heroin dealer for the cia, the record poppy crop must be nice ;-)
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