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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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Jul 26, 2007 - 01:47am PT
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Goatlips writes: Frankly I fail to see why I should answer any questions from someone who is consistently insulting.
No wonder AC never gets any answers.
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 26, 2007 - 01:51am PT
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The Hitler thing.
You got all side tracked by Russ and forgot your own thread.
Now even Russ said it: "now back to the Hitler thing".
So Russ came out with his Jonah Goldberg debate.
And you say nothing, except to defend your body consciousness
I am Drew and I am this British thing ......
So what!
Now what did Hitler say to Bush or Bush say to Hitler
Or even better ...... give us the real story that you are trying to convey in your original post without just throwing a cheap link.
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John Moosie
climber
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Jul 26, 2007 - 02:09am PT
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The real story is in the link. It shows how Hitler didn't appear to be this animal before he gained power. This is an important point, Hitler didn't appear to be an animal. He appeared to be strong and have the answers to the many problems that Germany faced at the time. Most people think they wouldn't have followed Hitler because they would have recognized how evil he was, just like they think they wouldn't have shouted "crucify him" if they were present at Jesus' trial. But before the war, it wasn't obvious what Hitler was like.
It showed what circumstances led up to people being willing to follow him. How he appeared to be strong right at a time when people felt vulnerable. It shows many circumstances similar to our situation here in America. It talks about how willing the Germans were to give up freedoms because they were frightened.
The link is a good one. Its not about Bush being like Hitler in the sense that Hitler was so brutal. Its more about how they use similar events to control people and in what ways people are being controlled.
I'm sorry that I am not explaining it better. The flu has sapped me and my brain isn't working very well. Not that its particularly steller when I don't have the flu. Don't let my ignorance stop you from reading the link.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jul 26, 2007 - 03:48am PT
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"The real story is in the link. It shows how Hitler didn't appear to be this animal before he gained power."
Hitler attempted an armed overthrow of the German state in 1922, and was imprisoned for two years for it. He was allied with far right wing militarists. During his time in prison he wrote Mein Kampf, which makes perfectly clear that his ambitions for Germany and Europe were sociopathic and nihilistic. It condemns Hitler in his own words. Mein Kampf was widely available in Germany before Hitler took power in January 1933. People might claim that they didn't know what his real goals were, but it's pretty much all there. They can claim that they didn't believe him - but the actions of the Wehrmacht and the SS make quite clear that the average German did.
I have no love for little George, who is clearly not fit to hold his office. He's simply not competent, and not trustworthy. But he's hardly in the same class as Hitler. He is an adequate orator - Hitler was superb. He has no world view to speak of, except that which is given to him by his handlers. Hitler had world view and then some. Most important, Hitler was able to highjack a state with shaky democratic foundations, and strong militaristic and racist traditions. The U.S. has strong democratic traditions, at least, and respect for the rule of law, although the right-wing attempt to co-opt the courts is disturbing. Even with modern technology and propaganda, and the notoriously short and selfish attention span of the American voter, those democratic and legal roots are strong.
Of the major leaders in World War II (Stalin, Churchill, Roosevelt, Hitler), Hitler was the only one who'd served as a soldier in World War I. He volunteered on the day war broke out, served at the front the entire war, and was twice mentioned in dispatches. More than you can say for what's his name.
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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Jul 26, 2007 - 05:26am PT
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President Bush has way more in common with President Clinton than he does with Hitler.
Sh#t, Bush was more in common with HILLARY Clinton than he does with Hitler.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Jul 26, 2007 - 06:49am PT
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I have been posting to the Supertaco for about two years now. I don’t know Russ, but I certainly hope to get the opportunity to meet him someday and also use his products.
But it seems to me that in those two years he is becoming more right wing. Is it just me or do others perceive this shift?
What say you, Russ?
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426
Sport climber
Buzzard Point, TN
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Jul 26, 2007 - 08:52am PT
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Jonah Goldberg, hey isn't that Ashcroft's Son In Law?
yeah yeah, I remember that dude now...Iraq was a worthy mistake...
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Jul 26, 2007 - 09:29am PT
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Anders, good post of yours a couple above this one.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jul 26, 2007 - 09:48am PT
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The parallels between the political machinations of the 3rd Reich and the Neo-Cons are striking and terrifying.
Russ it has little to do with the holocaust and more to do with methods of political control. Sadly it seems you can't seem to get past the "America is always right love it or leave it" mind set.
Quoting a Zionist nut job like Goldberg does little to advance your credibility.
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My Name Is Drew
Big Wall climber
Dogtown, LosAngeles, CA.
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 26, 2007 - 10:18am PT
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"I am Drew and I am this British thing. So what?"
lol....uh, Werner, hello, I was answering Russ' questions.
Please keep replies in context with the questions.
Thank you.
As to the OP I posted the link because it's author is considerably more eloquent than I. It speaks for itself.
Ok?
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the Fet
Knackered climber
A bivy sack in the secret campground
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Jul 26, 2007 - 11:00am PT
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I wonder why some right wingers take other people's view points and spin them to the max so they can pretend it's loony left wing dribble, instead of actually facing the facts.
e.g.
Someone says "look at these similarities between what Hitler did to gain power and what Bush is doing" and the right wingers say "you told me Bush=Hitler, Hitler is obviously much worse than Bush is, so I'm completely rejecting your statements because you are just a Bush-hater"
Or someone says "global warming is a danger to the economic and enviromental future of the planet" and the right wingers say "you told me global warming is going to all of a sudden destroy the planet, I don't see that happening, so it's not true, you are a whiny alarmist, there is nothing to worry about."
The truth is often somewhere in the middle. If you don't learn from the past, you are bound to repeat it.
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MikeL
climber
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Jul 26, 2007 - 11:08am PT
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Well, Russ, I'd be tempted to say that you think too much about this . . . .
As for the supposed correlation, it's silly and not very well made. What's needed is to see how many other governments and leaders have used the same tactics. If there are others, then it would be an insight into governing, rather than one government.
Think a little bit more, people, and look at the data.
"It is always a simple matter to drag people along whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. This is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in every country."
(Hermann Goering)
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jstan
climber
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Jul 26, 2007 - 12:41pm PT
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Yes.
Most excellent post Anders.
What the president's goals may be is not the entire question, unfortunately. We also have to ask the intentions of his handlers. We have no certain knowledge even as to who they are.
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euro-brief-guy
climber
mountain view, ca
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Jul 26, 2007 - 01:34pm PT
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Amazing how nobody makes the more obvious comparison of Hitler with that kook in Iran, who is very blunt about eliminating the state of Israel.
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euro-brief-guy
climber
mountain view, ca
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Jul 26, 2007 - 01:49pm PT
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I'm sure Hitler was equally "prophetic" in the early 1930's
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 26, 2007 - 02:01pm PT
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You can exterminate people without killing them physically.
Some of you are still tightly locked inside the "Box".
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the Fet
Knackered climber
A bivy sack in the secret campground
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Jul 26, 2007 - 02:04pm PT
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Thanks for proving my point Sketch.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jul 26, 2007 - 02:11pm PT
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Politicians, and governments, often have more power and less accountability than we'd like. They also usually have less freedom of manoeuvre than we believe, particularly in democracy with its checks and balances. In times of war or crisis, governments have more freedom to do what they want. A freedom that strong presidents like Lincoln and F.D. Roosevelt can be trusted to not misuse.
Bush had and squandered a golden opportunity after the attacks in September 2001. At that time, and for a year after, the U.S. had the goodwill of most of the world. Had Bush made any reasonable proposal to start change in the U.S. and the world, and perhaps showed a little humility, he could have done so. Whether domestic issues (economic inequality, a screwed up criminal justice system, environmental problems, unsustainable growth, reliance on oil particularly foreign oil, population growth and immigration, a screwed up health care system, or a country losing sight of its real values) or foreign issues (overpopulation, environment, refugees, ethnic cleansing, health care, economic development, religious and cultural hatred - you name it), Bush could have said: "Yes, we're going to revenge ourselves on the criminals. At the same time, we realize that things can't go on as they are, and that we need to work toward change." It would have been at least a start.
He destroyed his credibility, and threw his opportunity away, although he perhaps genuinely believed that he was doing the right thing. No credible strategy, and abhorrent tactics.
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jstan
climber
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Jul 26, 2007 - 02:38pm PT
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Many years ago when I was a student and had less time than I thought I had, we used to engage in extended discussions - never reaching a decision. We were not wasting our time, surely. But, in retrospect, I think had we focussed more on reaching agreement, we would have learned very valuable skills.
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UncleDoug
Social climber
N. lake Tahoe
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Jul 26, 2007 - 02:39pm PT
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"The fact is that Israel was created by the Brittish and endorsed by the UN, you can't go back in time. The queston now is, can the Islamic religious leaders ever learn to live with it or will there be the "clash of civilizations"."
I thought there was a "Clash of Civilizations" already going on Fatty?
Forgot your meds?
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