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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Jul 20, 2007 - 12:37am PT
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Beevor's book on the Battle of Berlin is a good follow up to Stalingrad. What goes around comes around and the German's got their payback all right.
If at the end of the war Patton really did want to attack the Russians, he was nuts.
Right now I'm in the middle of Guadalcanal Diary. I'll let you all know how it comes out.
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 20, 2007 - 12:43am PT
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World war II is history .....
We are now making World war III
Quit wasting your time on World war II and concentrate on the current war.
You guys ever learn anything? Ya read World war II history and now your still fighting another World war.
Reading World War II history is thus worthless ......
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Brother John
climber
Hafia
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Jul 20, 2007 - 01:33am PT
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Stalingrad - War of the rats.
Other good ones
Lost Victories - Field Marshal Erich Von Manstien
Sons of the Reich - 2nd SS Panzer Corps Ops - Michael Reynolds
A Writer at War - Vasily Grossman w/ the Red Army 41 to 45 -Trans: Antony Beevor and Luba Vinogradova (Personal Favorite and 2nd to none when it comes to describing the Tractor Factory Battles)
Armor Battles of the Waffen SS 43 to 45 - Stockpole Military History Series (Will Fey) - Best description of the mistakes at the Falaise Gap.
edit WBraun - Its just an interest in history.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
LA, Ca
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Jul 20, 2007 - 01:56am PT
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Werner, history can be a valuable learning tool.
One thing which can be learned by studying WWII is that war should only be undertaken as a last resort, and then with no holds barred. All out, win or lose. A complete national commitment.
These more recent enterprises, limited wars, volunteer army etc are all bullsh$t. Run by the corporate government complex.
If the war in Iraq were worth fighting, then why can our leaders not convince us that it is worth everyone's sacrifice, meaning a draft and an all out effort?
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 20, 2007 - 01:59am PT
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Just see
You are now starting to concentrate.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
LA, Ca
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Jul 20, 2007 - 02:06am PT
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Yes Werner, I see your point.
I have been concentrating for a while.
I hate the war in Iraq. I despise our current leaders. I laugh now when folks who three or four years ago said we should bomd 'em and bomb 'em again are now turning against Bush. People who voted for the fool. Fools themselves.
Yet, maybe because my own father fought his way across the Pacific in the Army Infantry or because my uncle died on the Oklahoma at pearl, or because my wife's Dad piloted a glider full of troops into France during the Normandy Invasion I somehow have a reverance for that generation of Americans. And so I thrive on learning their history.
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Gene
climber
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Jul 20, 2007 - 02:22am PT
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Well said, Kris.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jul 20, 2007 - 10:56am PT
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Personally I feel ashamed that younger generations are so blithely ignorant of sacrifices made by the Americans that fought in WWII, the most pivotal event in mankind's history.
If we do not value the freedoms that were so hard bought then its no wonder that they become eroded.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
LA, Ca
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Jul 20, 2007 - 01:12pm PT
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Well said, Ron... :-)
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Jul 20, 2007 - 01:37pm PT
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Would someone please check out the link I posted? If none of you have ever gamed, you'd find it amazing. You can read 20 books about Midway, and learn less than gaming the battle a few times. Amazing studies. same with the many other battles on which games have been produced.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jul 20, 2007 - 02:15pm PT
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Here's one for you Gene;
Who was the first Medal of Honor awardee in WWII?
The following quote along with his nickname makes me wonder what kind of a climber he would have made;
"If its impossible that just means it could take a little longer..."
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jul 20, 2007 - 02:25pm PT
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Another good recent one is Flyboys, the story of what happened to the naval aviators that were captured at Ichi Jima, the place George the elder was rescued from.
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 20, 2007 - 02:49pm PT
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A little something Werner should think about; I've seen these quotes many times in my life; and, of course, they are true: "Past is Prologue" and " Those that don't learn from history are bound to repeat it."
I study military history because it is the most profound and complex of all human experience. If you want to understand the human animal, you study war; it's the great constant. Human beings are the most complex, predatory, competitive and dangerous species on Earth. In war, humans express their extremes of nobility and ignobility, intelligence and stupidity, love and hate, creativity and destruction. War is the ultimate challenge to humans because it demands all their talents and capabilities in the ultimate existential endeavor. If you study war, you don't need to study psychology, sociology, philosophy or political science etc. because all those disciplines are empedded most profoundly in this most extreme human conflict. War is humanity in total.
The Second World War, being the largest and most complex, is the best of all wars to study. Further, it is near to us in time; and many of us have family that participated: I lost a great uncle at Pearl Harbor, and my Dad served in the Pacific.
Beyond all the above, war is the great drama, the greatest of all dramas: the realities of war overwhelm all the fictional drama ever written or to be written. Those that study war also know it to be the source of the greatest human comedy.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jul 20, 2007 - 03:19pm PT
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also the greatest stimulant to the advancement of technology
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Derek
climber
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Jul 20, 2007 - 03:20pm PT
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My understanding is that 15 members of USN were awarded the Medal of Honor for their actions at Pearl Harbor, and that they are collectively the first US personal so honored in WWII. Is this correct?
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Jul 20, 2007 - 03:23pm PT
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It's all about OIL...
...where do you think the German forces were headed when invading Russia...
... and to bring into a contemporary setting, what about...
...naw, I won't go down that path, there are too many naysayers on this thread.
EDIT
Those that study war also know it to be the source of the greatest human comedy.
And those that study peace? Or do the both go hand in hand?
Woody, Long Live War (if it is so fecking brillant and great).
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jul 20, 2007 - 03:26pm PT
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If I get this right, their actions were sooner but the awards later.
I'm thinking of Hammerin' Hank Elrod who sank a Japanese light cruiser with a 500 pound bomb and, after his plane was grounded, died in a beach infantry engagement at the "Alamo of the Pacific", Wake Island.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
LA, Ca
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Jul 20, 2007 - 03:35pm PT
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One of those 15 would be my uncle, Francis Flaherty, who perished when the Oklahoma capsized. He saved many lives by his actions but remained on board too long.
Speaking of good reading, every so often I just browse through these citations. Some of the one's from WWII are stunning and amazing. http://www.army.mil/cmh/moh.html
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Jul 20, 2007 - 03:40pm PT
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Woody, don't take it personal, but it seems like this thread is meant to glorify war.
That's my take at least.
And I guess in an ironic way, war and peace do go together.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jul 20, 2007 - 03:44pm PT
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While we are on early service in the war lets not forget the 'eagle' squadrons.
The hundreds of Americans that joined the RAF for the Battle of Britain in 1940 and wore an eagle patch on their uniforms.
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