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hossjulia
Trad climber
Eastside
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Here's the thing about the Castaneda books. It's a progression, like his life was. It is very interesting to take the time to read all the books in the order they were written. It took me about 2 years. It was great to see Castaneda grow and learn, and it is reflected in his writing. For some reason, I still don't really have a judgment one way or the other about them. Now I'm on my second go round, in random order.
There are also a handful of other books written by the women who studied under don Juan. I have read all of those too.
I've read all of these with a bit of skepticism, and realize that they may not be entirly true. But that's OK, there is plenty of good stuff to absorb and think about.
I feel like I am a better person for having gone through the process. I've also had some really cool dreams!
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 9, 2007 - 01:12pm PT
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Bump for the Monday Crowd
I was afraid you might miss it
Peace
Karl
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tradcragrat
Trad climber
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Fear can be so irrational sometimes. I sometimes get more scared following or toproping a really intimidating route than leading it. Hell, I've led R- and X- rated climbs that didn't spook me as much as following some climbs with the complete safety of a toprope. I guess on lead you're so focused that you forget about the irrational fears.
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Joe Metz
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Good thread, Karl. When confronted with fear, I make a conscious effort to retreat to rationality. For example, on a runout lead, when fear / panic starts to set in, I try to slow my mind down and take a realistic look at what is going on. Am I in really in danger of falling right here, or is it just the potential for a long fall or the consequences of the fall that I'm worried about? What are my options for movement or protection? I try to push back against getting tunnel vision -- look around for other options, for something to work with that I might have missed earlier. Can I reverse a move or two to get to a more secure location, where I can study the options? I try to concentrate on finding a solution and focusing on success rather than visualising the failure and its consequences.
In many ways dealing with fear while climbing is much simpler than dealing with fear in other life situations. When climbing, the things driving the fear are, for the most part, pretty obvious and can be confronted directly. Fear outside of climbing is often the result of lack of information (see Ed's post) that often leaves us to imagine a bad outcome and to become focused on it.
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Phil_B
Social climber
Hercules, CA
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OK, here's another one. Back in 2000, I had a recurring nightmare for a week. In the dream, I was walking across the Golden Gate Bridge with my son, who was 6 at the time. Midspan, he asked me to help him look over the span down at the water. I lifted him up and we looked down at the ships below us. All of a sudden I drop him and watch him fall toward the water. In some variations of the dream, I grabbed his shirt for a second, long enough for him to look into my eyes and say "Don't drop me Daddy".
I had this dream several times a night for a week. Needless to say, I was completely wrecked by the end of the week. I was afraid to go to bed. That would be the worst thing that could ever happen to me.
About a month later, I was in Yosemite with him and we went out to Glacier Point. We walked to the overlook and looked over. However, he couldn't reach over the edge to see. He asked me to lift him up. As I started to, I got this deja vu from my nightmares and told him that it wasn't going to happen that day.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Bwah-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha, Karl! The closest I ever came to drowning [in warm water] was in waves off of Kaua'i - my boogy board tether broke in huge pounding surf and I was left without flotation. All I could do was gulp a breath and hold it. I saw my board got washed into shore and screamed for help, but the waves were too loud, I was invisible. Treading water was hopeless cuz the undertow just swept my feet out from underneath. The best I could do was make like a jellyfish, float on top, and eventually I got washed in, like my board.
One of the closest times I've come to dying, pretty darn scary.
This spring my canoe got swamped when we hit four-foot rollers in a normally foot-deep creek. The water was from snowmelt, pretty much at freezing. I was kneeling on my lifejacket, not wearing it. How can you drown in waist-deep water, I thought. Suddenly I was swimming - in deep water! - bashed along in a six-mile-per-hour current beneath an unclimbable smooth four-foot-high bank, the breath being torn out of me by the cold. If I had mistimed my gulp of air, I might have been a goner. The canoe sure was - $3K down the tubes on that.
I'll wear my life jacket next time.
As for fear and climbing, or fear and life, it isn't about not being afraid, it's about facing down your fear.
Shut up and climb - whatever your mountain might be.
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WBraun
climber
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The big fear is thinking about woman at time of death.
You will be reborn a female in next life.
The greatest fear there is: is forgetting God at the time of death.
If you forget, you will be reborn in the material world according to the consciousness you have developed in this life.
Don't be thinking about your dog at that time ......
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hossjulia
Trad climber
Eastside
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why not?, I'm sick of being human.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 10, 2007 - 12:39am PT
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The basic way to manage fear on lead climbing (or following for that matter) is to let go (mentally) and let the fear energy flow through you and not get tensed up in your body/mind. Relax, make a rational decision based on the circumstances and abandon yourself to the action intended.
Peace
Karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 11, 2007 - 09:10am PT
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Ouch was along on my Hawaii trip. I'm tell ya, the waves were big.
No Fear Dude!
Karl
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Robb
Social climber
Under a Big Sky
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Jul 11, 2007 - 11:18am PT
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Karl
Next time don't forget to take the long board!!!
Robb
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 12, 2007 - 04:24pm PT
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Here's something I wrote on the rewards of climbing that combines a lot that we are discussing
It's an article on my site at
http://www.yosemiteclimber.com/Rewards_of_Climbing.html
The Rewards of Climbing
Folks have been trying to express the reasons and rewards of climbing for a long time. It's tough. I'm afraid I won't have the time or words to approach it now. But I'll make a start. Climbing can be anything from a crutch for our egos to a tool for personal transformation. It can be exercise, sport, art and religion.
We each have our own reasons and rewards for climbing. We may not even understand our reasons or be able to explain the rewards, but we feel something when we climb, and feel compelled to go on climbing.
For some climbing is like dancing; A joy in movement and self-expression. It can be merely exercise, which is pretty dang important to get! For others, climbing is mainly the backdrop for camaraderie and deeper friendships. We epic and we bond. We share this common experience, and now we belong somewhere. Some climbers become adrenaline junkies. We get a little jittery if we don't get the "rush" of some hard cranking on a regular basis.
It's easy for us to get our ego mixed up in our climbing. Most of the time, we are completely wrapped up in a mental dialog about ourselves. We weave an illusory concept of ourselves from our personal history and personal insecurities. That collection of concepts creates a false sense of identity which is our ego. We talk to ourselves internally about how we're doing, what we want, and what we fear. We struggle to find something special about our lives and ourselves. I have found that the false sense of self that this incessant dialog creates becomes a major limitation to peace and harmony in life.
We're seduced by our self-concept, and even if we experience climbing on some deeper level, it's hard not to relate it to our ego as well. Climbing is exotic and sexy. Being a "Climber" makes us special and elevates us above the mundane masses (at least in our minds) When we do something we didn't think we could, we feel better about ourselves. The more we feel our life's validity is related to climbing, the more we tend to think "our" type of climbing is superior to that of others. "Our" way of climbing is ethical and pure! Others don't understand because they haven't reached "Our" level. Still, it feels better to feel good about yourself than bad. Climbing's not a bad way to get there, if you can do it without putting others down in the process.
Sometimes climbing gives us a taste of something beyond our ego. Most of us have experienced flashes of peace and harmony while climbing. When I'm balanced on tiny holds and a lapse in concentration could send me plummeting to unknown consequences, I can't afford to be distracted by mental chatter. The circumstance of climbing brings me absolutely into the present moment. My whole being comes into focus on the problem of ascending stone. In the face of potential struggle for survival, the petty concerns of my little self dare not surface. I feel the power of my real being, integrated and intimate. I have the opportunity to realize that I would be better off without the incessant depressing pep talk of the mind. I start to break the habit of constant associative thinking. Being present and centered in the here and now is a state that is inherently fulfilling. Don't take my word for it, just notice for yourself when you are out on the stone, feeling in the groove! If you find you're having a bad day at the crags, take note of your state of mind. Collect yourself fully and see if things change.
Many sports have enabled people to have peak experiences. Anything that concentrates the mind creates a window for self-discovery. Climbing is an especially potent tool because the apparent risk DEMANDS our concentration. Concentration is not "thinking hard". It’s the focus of all our attention. Learning to focus and act in the face of fear gives us the power to respond when others simply panic. If I were a passenger in a car spinning out on an icy road, I would want a climber at the wheel.
Beside the intense experience of Being realized at peak moments on challenging climbs, the whole immersion in nature soaks us in peace and beauty.
Instead of just walking over the ground, our feet insulated with shoes, we embrace nature with our bare hands, with our whole bodies. By learning to use our body in concert to accomplish improbable moves, we reclaim our natural state of physical wholeness. An unconscious attitude that our arms are accessories for manipulating phones and faxes is replaced by a comfortable and intuitive sense of our physical totality.
When we go climbing, we return to a world undomesticated by artificial routines and pretensions. Most of us get into the habit of sleepily taking our world for granted. Climbing interrupts our usual world. Trees look different from hundreds of feet up. The whole landscape unfolds from a higher vantage point. The change in perspective allows us to have a different view on our lives as well.
When I soloed Zodiac, my second grade VI, in 1982, I was immersed in a week of solitary concentration in the vertical environment. 300 feet from the top I was ravaged by an intense storm that rained and snowed on me until things looked quite grim. Between breaks in the storm, I crept up to the summit and was redeemed! After a week without walking, and without many of the everyday experiences that I took for granted, everything seemed new again. Plants and trees seemed to explode with life. When I removed the rack and walked around unroped, I felt like an astronaut romping in the reduced gravity of the moon! The friends who came to help me carry gear down were magical beings. My heart swelled from feelings of brotherhood. When we reached the car, I felt like we were driving a million miles an hour. I can't even describe the hot food and cold beer. I enjoyed a refreshed experience of everything.
You might find yourself in different ways than I have. Your perspective on the blessings of climbing will be different. I just hope that you look within yourself and find out more about what climbing means to you; what it teaches you. Don't let anyone tell you what climbing "should" be for you! Own it yourself! Maybe you'll find that climbing helps you offer a better person to your whole world. The danger of domestication threatens you and your family. They won't be any happier in a sleepy daily routine either. They may have to find themselves in their own way too, but you can be the example. Take the freedom, fearlessness, and joy from your world of climbing and pass it on.
Peace
Karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 23, 2008 - 10:03pm PT
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I was just taking a dump and thought of this old thread.
So instead of "bump"
It's
"dump"
;-)
Karl
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Oct 24, 2008 - 12:24am PT
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I really do not fear death anymore. I would not like to suffer say cancer, I would like it to be quick when the Grim Reaper comes for me. Next week or in 40 more years, I care not.
Juan
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Oct 24, 2008 - 01:32am PT
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hey there... say, very interesing variety of posts piling-up here...
fear not, though, there is plenty of room for more...
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Oct 24, 2008 - 03:05am PT
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"unreasoned fear is the master intellectual fraud practiced upon the evolving mortal soul."
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Chris2
Trad climber
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Oct 24, 2008 - 09:03am PT
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I read a study (sorry years ago, can not reference), saying we are really only born with two fears.
Heights and loud noises.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 3, 2009 - 01:42am PT
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Pate dug up a link to this old thread and I thought it was a good topic that didn't quite take off.
So read the OP and post up!
Peace
Karl
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truclimber
Trad climber
Nevada
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Fears, Hmmm
This is quite the topic, Throughout my life there has been many things I have been afraid of. Nightmares for one, seem to be especially frightening. Usually some sort of ax murdering santa clause and or clown. Yikes.
In life however, other things tend to take the premise of fear. Such as losing a loved one. Or the state of being alone. These things tend end up in the category of Fear of the Unknown.
I don't know why, I think more than anything fear is when you let your emotions get the best of you. Heart cooks brain sort of thing.
Anyway, Thanks Karl, this thread has given me a chance to reflect my thoughts. and is much appreciated. sorry for any gramatical errors its been a while since I have written anything at all.
Peace
B
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MH2
climber
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That Pate is everywhere. Good bump, good OP, good posts.
My biggest abstract fear has been losing one of our kids, especially if there was suffering on their part. After all, we brought them into the world. So far it has treated them pretty well, hence the abstract or hypothetical cast to that fear.
Another interesting fear, as spoken of above, is fear in dreams. When younger I would sometimes be pursued by a villain who always kept coming at me. No matter what defense I used he had a counter for it. Eventually I realized that he could outthink me because he was me.
And it would be particularly horrible to cause another's death because of negligence or inattention on your part. An Uncle once struck and killed a woman with his car. It was during a snowstorm and visibility was awful, but he never could forgive himself.
I don't have any insight into the root cause of those fears, and the lasting intensity of the grief that follows losing a child has been noted as difficult to account for as a response that natural selection would favor.
I used to fear heights but now I just fear falling from them.
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