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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Jun 26, 2007 - 12:04pm PT
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I've wavered back and forth on this for a while. Not going to argue or really even talk about it. As we've all learned with NPS, what would be the point, right? In all fairness, I should also state that I haven't read the report in full yet, either. Just skimmed through.
"One thing that didn't get stated in this report:"
Man, being that I was there, on the ground, when it all went down, as well as had a friend on the wall who was in retreat when it hit, there are a lot of things in this report that didn't get stated.
I think the biggest thing, and I've heard this asked a lot in the past, "Why didn't they try to top out or try to bail? WHy did they stop" They were *told* to stay put, by the powers that be and that help would get them in a few hours. Help didn't even start to move for a LONG time after that. "Why didn't they yell?" They *did* yell. People heard them from the meadow. Yelling was pretty critical in some of the things that happened, actually. Now, I don't know everything that happened behind the scenes and what caused help to not start out for an eternity, but a number of things and times in that report are not even close to accurate. I've spoken to at least one other person who felt/witnessed the same things.
I feel the whole thing was poorly handled and a lot was covered up to hide that fact. I want to state, right from the beginning, that I *highly* admire Werner and his mates that are on the ground (or above it) doing the actual work! Those guys are badass! I do over the side rescue work, as well as search and fire, locally, and have the utmost respect for those guys. But persons higher up sometimes really f*#k things up and make some bad choices.
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Rhodo-Router
Gym climber
Otto, NC
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Jun 26, 2007 - 12:05pm PT
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uh-oh, here we go.
Sickening read.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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Jun 26, 2007 - 12:30pm PT
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Yosar monitors "Yell-Net"™™™ as do all the meadow jockeys.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Jun 26, 2007 - 12:43pm PT
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Well, whoever was manning the PA system was monitoring whether or not they yelled (YellNet), Russ, as he asked them to yell if they heard and understood him when he told them to stay put.
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Jun 26, 2007 - 01:00pm PT
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Regarding the predicted weather, I saw the report and even posted a link here in response to someone's question. But I also remember the prediction of rain sort of coming and going. The magnitude of it wasn't clear to me as I watched the reports.
The day that the storm hit I climbed comfortably on the 5OB in a tank top even in the shade. It was gorgeous. I went to a party in Yosemite West that night where guests were unable to return home b/c of the pass closing. It came on stronger than most.
I'm not saying that going up w/ that forcast was prudent, but it really was bluebird until the storm hit suddenly, and they had expected to be down, IIRC, before it came in. Maybe for that reason the SAR report suggested that if they'd known about the forcast, they might not have changed plans?
My bias if I were in that situation, would be to try to go down out of the worst watercourses to wait out the storm, but my recollection of that storm was that there was little warning to restage things before it was coming down in buckets and snowing too.
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Jun 26, 2007 - 01:39pm PT
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Since this is supposed to be a collective effort to understand what could be done differently to avoid tragedies like that that befell Ryoichi and Mariko, it seems to me that there is a disconnect between the weather report in the Valley and what it could mean versus what Dingus or Werner saw coming or the better prepared climbers on the Captain were expecting might happen. I would not have thought any thing about it except that Dingus' comments are not reflected in the YOSAR report.
It is all a matter of degree, but I certainly know that predicted storms in October (or September), even those predicted to be mild, can turn into life threatening epics in a hurry. I have no desire to criticize anyone, but misreading the weather is a primary cause of many climbing accidents and preparing for the worst is sensible advise. I expect that Ryoichi and Mariko probably had no idea of the uncertainty.
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426
Sport climber
Buzzard Point, TN
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Jun 26, 2007 - 02:32pm PT
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Great read and analysis. The yearly accidents journal should be considered mandatory "grad school" reading for anyone venturing into the Bigs.
When we did the Nose in Oct. (Halloween partay with Jon Fox) we topped out in a raging blizzard. The last pitch was covered with snow and my partner couldn't pay out rope (it was dark and a knot had "magically" manifested itself in the lead line). I was screaming desperate curses for slack but little line was paid.
...in the swirling flakes I thought about the parties that had frozen right there, icicles and all...took the slack in my teeth and "frictioned" up that last bit, inch by inch.
Lucky. Knowing people died there made a difference in the way I "climbed"...
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 26, 2007 - 03:13pm PT
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"that storm was well-forecasted more than a week in advance. It was predicted, accurately as it turned out, before they left the ground. "
I firmly disagree. I was considering a wall at the same time and closely checked the forcasts. For Yosemite the chance of percipitation as 20% each day at the time folks were starting their walls. Often in Yosemite, 20% turns out to be nothing, even as stronger weather may be predicted North.
When weather hit, it was radical, not like 20% hardly ever turns out to be.
Sh#t happens, wrong place, wrong time, did some of the wrong things only in hindsight.......
sometimes it's your time
Peace
Karl
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Jun 26, 2007 - 03:21pm PT
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"GU taped to the top of your helmet..."
LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!
Karl the storm was predicted in advance. I had pitches fixed on the NA (ha!). It had been predicted for a week, but arived earlier then the predictions.
I was there with the PA SAR guys and their Japannese friend. We could barely hear a yell in the storm. We all listened hard, but all we could make out was what sounded to be a womens yell, which to me was about as louid as the squeak of a mouse.
They hunkered down too long. They should have either rapped or charged the summit at least a day earlier.
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GDavis
Trad climber
SoCal
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Jun 26, 2007 - 03:32pm PT
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Great post. Very insightful information! I certainly learned a lot, and hopefully this tragedy can keep the mountains that much safer.
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Tahoe climber
Trad climber
a dark-green forester out west
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Jun 26, 2007 - 03:39pm PT
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www.wunderground.com is another good weather site
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Rhodo-Router
Gym climber
Otto, NC
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Jun 26, 2007 - 03:43pm PT
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I can just see the freezing partners sucking the GU out of each other's hair...
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Jun 26, 2007 - 03:45pm PT
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Here's, something interesting about this that I'll never forget....
First of all, Nefarius, you are wrong that NPS told them to stay put. I was standing right there when the NPS commands were translated through the PA. They (Keith) instructed the translator to tell them "yell if you need a rescue, we are coming" and that is all. They didn't say "stay put, start climbing, start rapping," or anything else.
The interesting thing is that the Japanesse instructions went on for about 2 minutes. I was thinking to myself, "WTF dude that's not what they told you to say!"
He finished with the PA, walked over to me and my buddy, and said..."They won't be getting rescued."
A few minutes later they started climbing off their perch on Camp 6. and SAR was like "oh,shit wtf are they doing!" Keith just walked away shaking his head in dis-belief.
Draw your own conclusions. I am not exagerating or lying, that is exactly what happened. Something you won't find in any SAR report.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Jun 26, 2007 - 03:50pm PT
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I am just speculating but, maybe the two climbers may have been able to survive if they had stayed put at Camp VI and not tried to climb out. In reading the report, everything seemed to start going wrong once they broke camp and started climbing again. Maybe their sleeping bags were soaked through and they were already freezing, but by starting to climb again, they completely exposed themselves to the elements. It may be argued that moving can help generate body heat, but if conditions are really bad, that might not be the
best alternative.
Of course, this is all Monday Morning Quarterbacking.
Bruce
Edit - Lambone, look at the time of your post. I was posting as you were posting so, no, I did not read your post.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Jun 26, 2007 - 03:53pm PT
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^^^^^did you read my post above?
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Jun 26, 2007 - 03:55pm PT
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Well, maybe we heard different things at different times. I heard them tell them to stay put. Maybe this was at a different point, earlier or later.
Regardless, I remember reading their pseudo report not too long after event, as well as talking to others who were there and the facts simply didn't match the report. Again, the biggest issue was the timeline.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Jun 26, 2007 - 03:59pm PT
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Were you standing under that tent with us? There were only a couple of people there...
Unless you know Japanesse you don't know what was actually said to the climbers.
Only one person knows what was said actually to the climbers. And it wasn't "yell if you need a rescue." It was much more then that. He knew the climbers better then any of us, he took them up SFWC and helped them prepare for the wall. He looked me dead in the eye and said "they don't want a rescue."
It's crazy, but I'm sure that is why they started climbing....the look in his eyes told me. It is a fact that there is a cultural difference between American and Japanesse climbers, and I saw it that day.
In the wind and rain that day those climbers might not have understood anything said in the PA, who knows....
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Howie
Trad climber
Calgary, Alberta
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Jun 26, 2007 - 04:23pm PT
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I agree about the cultural differences. We also saw this first hand in Chamonix in 196?. Our first trip here. Met up with four Japanese climbers preparing for the first Japanese ascent of the Eiger North face. Great guys to hang with. Full of life but dedicated to this first ascent, to a fault.They were climbing in all sorts of weather whilst we just hung around town wait for it to clear. Very similar to the Mallory and Irvine era of the British Empire.
Sadly two (or was it three?) die in the attempt on the Eiger, two weeks after we returned to the UK.
Howie.
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Jun 26, 2007 - 04:24pm PT
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The fact that some of you locals disagree on the weather report should help you to understand how a couple from Japan may not "get it", even if they had the weather report in hand.
I am with dingus, I have a very strong aversion to getting trapped by weather. I think I read the "White Spider" one too many times. At my first attempt at the NIAD I had to talk my partner into retreating after the Great Roof. I know we could have made it, but the uncertainty and the fact that we had no bivvy gear, and didnt know the descent definitely blew my psyche bad enough to throw my dice into another unknown, rapping down that far. One fear overruled the other.
The other interesting thing is that two guys who were there, lambone and nefarious disagree on some events. It is no wonder then that an NPS report may also disagree on some of your recollections.
Despite that, I find this to be very gut wrenching and my thoughts are still with their family members. I have no doubt that SAR did everything possible to help them and they too must have felt very badly at the outcome.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Jun 26, 2007 - 05:20pm PT
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Seems to me they ran it too thin. I see no particulars here. Margin is gained through things like forecasts, extra clothing and experience. The most glaring thing I see here is the very low experience:objective ratio. Lots of margin lost there, and not made up for in enough other ways.
All that said, I would have rapped. I think the "over the top" mentality is very often flawed and is very rarely the quickest way down. I've read about far more epics and deaths from going up than going down. Experience often means you've bailed a lot and know how to do it well. A lack of experience (and ego) is what makes people keep going up, IMO.
JLP
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