Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Greg Barnes
climber
|
|
"You don’t go up on one of El Cap’s trade routes and chop bolts without wanting a "reaction.""
Hey Lincoln, that's exactly what Jack & I ended up doing on the first half of the Nose, but we never advertised it, and never got any "reaction." Of course, a lot of the bolts we removed already had broken-off hangers, or were "unneeded" in most people's opinion. That's really the key - what bolts are considered "unneeded."
These guys are up there:
1) removing dead heads and cleaning broken pins - everyone supports this, and it deserves real recognition - it's hard & tedious work.
2) pulling other tat, whether slings or whatever - another point in their favor.
3) removing bolts that they consider unneeded.
So the only controversial thing is number 3. Obviously they want people to know about it.
However, before we all blow up, it REALLY depends on the specific case at each bolt removed. It comes down to how you define "unneeded." Nearly every climber will agree that a 1/4" protection bolt next to a perfect #2 camalot placement is "unneeded". When it comes to a bolt next to a pile of deadheads, there is more debate.
When it comes down to it, the only thing that I'm really concerned about is pin scars - I don't want to see the rock wrecked. But Bryan & Ivo & Gabe have a point - if you use that excuse to add bolts next to cracks, it changes the lead game. On the other hand, some routes - such as Zodiac - get so much traffic that if people nail all the time, the rock will just get wrecked.
Everything's a balance. Piton use changes the rock (wasn't it Largo who wrote that he personally took the Prow from A4 to A2 by overdriving pins on a single ascent?). Bolt use changes the rock. Traffic changes the rock.
So how Bryan & folks strike that balance is the key. That depends on the specific cases. So let's hold off on judging the clean-up until they get down and have a chance to detail what they did.
Greg
|
|
Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
|
|
Some people reading this may be inclined to jump to conclusions about what kind of person BL is...
I'd say before you go casting judgements, take a chance to email him your questions or thoughts...or drive up into the valley, look for his black pickup in C4 or by the Bridge and go drink a beer with him. I've had the opportunity to run into him a few times, and although we are more or less strangers to eachother and have never climbed together, I would call him a friend. He is ultra supportive, kind, generous with his extra beers, and all around fun to hang with.
I don't want to speak for him, but one thing I will say is, he definately has a strong passion for preserving the quality and character or routes on El Cap, and the cliff in general.
In my eyes, his motivations are simply to preserve the original character of a route, a perspective of which he makes no exceptions. He doesn't buy into the belief that trade routes should be "dumbed down" for newbies, merely because they get alot of traffic.
anyway, I can respect that. I just wonder...a few years down the road if his efforts now are really going to make a diffrence.
up2top,
if you do a search on this board there was a thread a while back where Bryan was investegating which bolts were originals. That might help you figure oute which ones. I believe he will be chopping some on Pitch 1, 3, 5, 9? (nipple)and 13 (above peanut).
|
|
Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
|
|
"So will the bolt at the wide spot (the tit) on the nipple pitch get removed??"
Yes
With a couple big cams those bolts are totally uneccesary. They are total "convenience bolts"....not that I didn't clip them...;-)
|
|
can't say
Social climber
Pasadena CA
|
|
perhaps a bit of historical perspective helps in understanding their motivations for doing the clean up. When I did it in 81, it was just entering the trade route status. It had been down graded to A3+. It was my first El Cap route and both my partner and I had only done the mandatorty warm up walls on lesser formations.
Our rack consisted to a double set of friends (no half sizes I think) lots of thin pins and the usual assortment of heads and hooks. My memory tells me there weren't that many new or added bolts, except for the belays and critical sections that Porter had bolted. The original P5 had that bolt ladder that went out way left and then back again. Some of the hangers were old pins with a bolt hole drilled in them and you would clip the eye of the pin. The 12th pitch had minimal bolts, a couple of fun hook moves and that loose blocky section. The pitch above Peanut had a couple of fixed bongs and a bolt or two. But over all, not much had changed from the FA.
The climbing was fun, wild and lots of pins got to be placed. The nipple was pristine, with only blades, arrows and a baby or two needed. I didn't need the bolts out to the right, and was able to use #4 friends to get around that part.
But I guess my point in this memory lane rambling, is that for our first El Cap route it never seemed that difficult. And if today, where it sounds like there is a whole bunch of fixed stuff, added bolts etc. which basically allows for a clip up. I say get rid of it. A proud route like that should never be brought down to the level of the climbers.
Regarding pin scars being increased in size due to new pins being placed. Heck if you can't nail on El Cap, where can you? but pin scars only will get so big until the modern day clean pro will make the pins outdated and passae`. Offset HBs, Aliens, ballnuts etc. make most pin scars a pretty moot point. Sure they are going to erode the rock to a certain degree until one of those new gagets will fit, but in my opinion it would be much more asetetic not to see a bolt and instead see a slightly bigger pin scar, albeit not of the size that occured, like on Serintity Crack
|
|
samanthaclimber
Big Wall climber
usa
|
|
I certainly hope they remove the bullsh*t Huber belays. And how about that 4" corner near the top? get rid of all those bolts and bathooks. that pitch is a disgrace to any self respecting "climber". I guess there ain't many of you left.
|
|
Link
climber
Yosemite, CA
|
|
I hear you Greg, of course it’s possible to do good deeds without wanting a reaction. I'm not criticizing the Zodiac deal, I’m just being my usual cheesy self and trying to get people to question, well, everything. :)
As you pointed out I think “most” people would agree with “most” of what’s happening on Zodiac, it’s just the details we’re squabbling over, or “discussing.”
Speaking of clean ups, myself and a few others are planning a decent sized trash clean up for the Nose in a few weeks. No bolt chopping or pin removal, just good old garbage collection. I’ll post more info about this on another thread.
-Link
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
So Lambone
"So will the bolt at the wide spot (the tit) on the nipple pitch get removed??"
Yes
With a couple big cams those bolts are totally uneccesary. They are total "convenience bolts"....not that I didn't clip them...;-)
=
Well, Porter put that nipple pitch bolt in on the first accent. He ran out of food when he got there and rapped back to the ground to get more.
Werner
|
|
samanthaclimber
Big Wall climber
usa
|
|
So what! I don't care if he was out of food or merely had sand in his vagina. That bolt is next to a perfectly protectable crack so it should be pulled. And I don't want to hear you lilly-livered homos whining about having to bring more gear up there. If you don't like it try a route that's more you're speed...like the LeConte bolt ladder.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
JB
Whoa tuff guy... It was only mentioned how the bolt got there not about how bad ass you are.
|
|
Michelle
Sport climber
Zone 10
|
|
hasn't BL been talking about doing this for awhile? now, when he sucks up and shows some sac for following thru with what he says he's going to do, he gets sh#t. interesting.
you shouldn't climb it if you can't climb it. You'd see me all over the place otherwise.
|
|
samanthaclimber
Big Wall climber
usa
|
|
Everyone WAS climbing Zodiac because they COULD, due to it being over bolted and over fixed.
Who wouldda thought BL would actually motivate to go up there? Certainly not me, but I don't know him too well.
|
|
BrentA
Gym climber
estes park
|
|
You really need to check yourself (seriously) if your dissing Charlie Porter.
The fixed gear will be back in three days after they yank it all.
The bolts might take longer, but they too will return.
Greg fixes the Nose, posts nothing, does the right thing, no probs.
Bryan puts up a note in C4....lmfao...no exterior motives.
What funny little valley drama.
Before you lambast me, I've climbed Zodiac twice, before and after the ASCA work. Tat is a part of trade routes, it is nice to remove it, but announcing it is a bit in poor taste (IMHO).
Im sure Bryan will come down and clue us in to the whole story.
Until then...cheers.
Again, your a fool to talk schmack about Porter.
|
|
Ben Wah
Social climber
|
|
I do not think it is necessary to announce when one will be chopping added bolts. That BL did so says of him that he does not wish anyone to get sandbagged by going up there with the assumption that it is mostly fixed. Knowing how fixed (or not) a particular route is plays a big part in my racking-up process. During a time when Zodiac was mega-fixed, it was even soloed with 3 daisies and no lead line, and with the "continuous loop" system (scketch on both!!)
Their cleanup differs from Beyer's in that they will not be smashing hangers flat, booby trapping rivets, etc. Those antics give all chopping a bad name, though the thought behind them be at antipodes to what BL is thinking.
|
|
Greg Barnes
climber
|
|
Hey Brent, just to clarify, my friend Jack Hoeflich is the one who thought up and led the Nose cleanup (originally just to clean up behind Texas flake), I only helped 3 days, he probably did 10+ days, and several people helped out fixing lines.
My point was that in many cases, ASCA rebolters have removed added bolts, and every once in a while, even original bolts where modern pro works fine. My point is that the ONLY time we've had any controversy is when we make an announcement about it.
I think most climbers would prefer to leave the rock and the route as clean as possible - I personally like the idea of cleaning routes up, and I'd like to hear Bryan & co.'s take on particular bolts that are/were controversial.
|
|
samanthaclimber
Big Wall climber
usa
|
|
Since i've just been accused of talking "schmack" about Charlie, allow me to elaborate:
I've only climbed Zodiac once...20 years ago. I remember not only being disgusted by the 12 bolts and piss streaks at some belays, but also incredulous at some of the BOTCH jobs CP made in certain places. The most obvious example is the crappy ladder on pitch 5. Maybe he was super rummy when he drilled it, I don't know, but Chris Mac had to go straighten this pitch out and no has climbed CP's ladder since. I mean come on people, that ladder sucked. Sh*tty bolts that went WAY out left only to return to the right. Maybe he could have borrowed a tourist's binos to LOOK at this potential pitch before he went up there. Chris drilled the straight up line with minimal bolts and there is actually much more featured rock just to the right.
Am I talking smack or just pointing out the obvious by a critique? Be careful how high of a pedestal you place your idols.
|
|
David
Trad climber
San Rafael, CA
|
|
Link wrote: "I asked one of the “cleaners” last week what kind of reaction he was hearing from other climbers, and replied that he didn’t give a &#$% what other climbers thought."
Ammon wrote on RC.com: "BUT, I don’t think they are hiding what they are doing either. In fact several magazines where contacted by them to report the event."
Well...not sure what to make of that. They might not care what other climbers think but clearly they want lots of other climbers to know what they're were doing. I'm not sure you can get around the fact that this was a statement as much as a humble cleaning job.
Doesn't matter to me much either way. I've never climbed Zodiac but hope to get up that one this season or next. I don't think that the cleaning will have much effect on my decision or that of others in a similar boat. It will change the rack I would bring but it wont change a desire to climb the route. Correct me if I'm wrong but there's now way this climb will ever be the A4/A5 test piece that CP put up is there?
|
|
BrentA
Gym climber
estes park
|
|
JB= Jimmy Beyer????
I dont think so but maybe? If it is you, we've met. Sand is his vagina sounded a bit like schmack, maybe i'm off. I don't idolize him, in fact, never met him. My working knowledge is his "productive period" was only a few years...but jesus, was it productive. Moose Antler, and was it Asgard? Not to mention New Dawn, Zod, and TT. Not idolizing him, more a working respect.
If you are the real JB, let me put a little sand in your vagina, i've added bolts to TWO of your routes. Not the proudest moments of my life, but neccassary in the monments they happened.
---------------------
Greg- I think Yosemite presents an unusual opportunity for route stewardship, and upkeep. Like you say, it does seem to be "bolt to bolt" in terms of the situation. No, I dont think Zodiac needs 12 bolts at the belay at the top of the grey circle. Yes, it saddens me these routes get raped over time. Yes, the wide pitch at the top of Zod, doesn't need all those bolts. Times change though too. Was big gear as common twenty plus years ago? I know the ASCA has battled with removing FA bolts in wide spots that now protect no prob. Didnt the ASCA just replace all those bolts above Peanut Ledge a few seasons back?
I don't care to engage in this anymore, too much already. Especially without the people involved being involved. My only point is if they do this without publicity,and lord help me, involving the rags this would have maybe been a nice little thing to do for all of us. It is obviously a statement of some sort.
PS- If it is you Jim B. I'm very sorry for adding those bolts. I was up there to begin with cuz there weren't any.
|
|
Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
|
|
"I certainly hope they remove the bullsh*t Huber belays."
------------------------------------------------
They don't plan on removing those belays....I don't think.
WB,
Thanks for pointing that out about the Nipple Bolt, I did'nt know that. I had allways read that he ditched his rack and free climbe through that section...as stated in the ST Guide...not sure how he would be able to stop mid lieback and place a bolt, but I'll take your word for it...
|
|
coiler
Trad climber
yosemite
|
|
From what I'm reading, there are two trains of thought going on here: People who ARE capable of sending El Cap, and love the chop suey party. And people who would like to some day climb El Cap, and they are sore that it's not a clip up anymore. Let's face it, now people who think they are ready for it will actualy have to CLIMB the route. There are plenty of Grade fives for people to train on for El Cap. El Cap is not the place for a first big wall, no matter what Super Topos tells them! Yahoo choppers! If your skirt blows over your head up there, be humble and descend. Zodiac will be haunting you untill you return with more sack, and THAT'S what climbing is all about.
|
|
Max
Social climber
Santa Cruz
|
|
Word, coiler. Word to the mother f*#ker
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!