Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
|
Jun 20, 2007 - 10:18pm PT
|
Sorry that a life was lost and loved ones grieve.
Too bad that we have such a crisis management mentality towards things. IF some NPS folks feel they MUST do something for the sake of safety and public opinion, more signage is probably the least intrusive solution.
"Notice: It is against the law of gravity to let go of the cables. Punishable by injury or death. This activity is just as hazardous as it looks. Now go have fun."
Peace
Karl
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Jun 20, 2007 - 10:23pm PT
|
Just like a burger joint that tells you how many billion served there should be a simple sign that gives the current fatal tally at the bottom of the cables.
|
|
slobmonster
Trad climber
berkeley, ca
|
|
|
Jun 20, 2007 - 10:34pm PT
|
"Just like a burger joint that tells you how many billion served there should be a simple sign that gives the current fatal tally at the bottom of the cables."
There's something quite similar at the base of Mount Washington, in New Hampshire. Since 1849 135 persons have died on its slopes.
http://www.mountwashington.org/about/visitor/surviving.php
There is also strongly-worded signage at nearly every trailhead, and at treeline:
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Jun 20, 2007 - 10:43pm PT
|
I think that it's awesome that people from all walks of life can go up to the top of half dome via the cables.
It's a great benefit to society and it enlivens the soul.
If the cables were not there, believe me you would see 100 times the amount of deaths and injuries sustained by the over zealous and over adventurous folks who will push their inexperienced curiosity to try and summit it.
Leave the cables alone!
Get a life ..........
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Jun 20, 2007 - 11:23pm PT
|
Actually Werner you make a pretty good argument for their removal.
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Jun 20, 2007 - 11:29pm PT
|
Half Dome like some kind of giant bug zapper for the vertically stupid. The concessionaire could position a remains recovery crew with spatulas.
Why are we obligated to protect people from themselves?
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
|
Jun 21, 2007 - 12:45am PT
|
The hike itself is not trivial, so people who actually make it to the cables are in some sort of shape... it is pretty obvious where you are and what the situation is... and you do hang it way over the edge, at least for a normal hiking person's experience.
You would have to intentionally delude yourself into thinking that it is safe because the signage insufficiently warned you of the danger... it's not like getting out of your car to look at a buffalo 10 yards away.
The signage is not going to stop someone from doing something stupid. There is a sign on the way up to the toe of El Cap, I sometimes wonder who could be enlightened by its admonition... geeze, you can feel it just standing there!
|
|
Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
|
|
|
Jun 21, 2007 - 12:55am PT
|
I'm with Werner.
My Cousin (who in 19 days will be as old as I am right now) and her two Kids went up The Cables a couple years ago and listening to her describe her experience made me proud to be An American (or something like that).
Although I have been climbing with both of her Kids (my First Cousins, Once Removed) there in NO F#%KING WAY she would have even made the hike out there (let alone tie in with a Doofus like Me) if The Cables hadn't been there.
I say leave the Goddamn Cables as they are and watch your ass as you always do.
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
|
Jun 21, 2007 - 01:07am PT
|
slobmonster posted a picture of a sign I know well from my time winter climbing in the White Mountains... there have been times that I have been up there and it has been a literal fight against death. Somedays go by without a hitch. But winter up there is just like the sign sez.
On July I hiked up Mt. Washington with Debbie. It was lovely, big puffy clouds moving lazily across the sky, something like 70º F, the shrubs green. We got to the "Alpine Garden," and I commented that the last time I saw the little wooden sign it had been knocked over in the wind and lay beneath 3" of clear ice, and it was 6º F at noon with a 30 mph wind blowing. We got up a little farther and she asked why there were so many mounds of rock, really big cairns, stacked up so closely. I told her about the time I was up there and you couldn't see the next one 20' away. The small area above Huntington revine so inviting and comfortable in the summer, seemed at times to be the most remote place on earth in winter when the sh#t was hitting the fan.
People die up there, I don't think the signs make much of a difference.
It is a matter of personal responsibility and being aware of where you are. If you don't accept that responsibility, and don't know the situation, you're in for it no matter how many signs there are.
|
|
slobmonster
Trad climber
berkeley, ca
|
|
|
Jun 21, 2007 - 01:53am PT
|
Ed wrote
"It is a matter of personal responsibility and being aware of where you are. If you don't accept that responsibility, and don't know the situation, you're in for it no matter how many signs there are."
Absolutely amigo, I could not agree more. I consider a sign such as pictured --a yellow one-- much as I do the yellow signs on the highway that suggest a safe driving speed. With my knowledge of the road, current conditions, I may choose to exceed the posted suggested speed. But on an unfamiliar road, at night, in the desert, when I can't see the turn up ahead, I appreciate the notice. Fair warning.
That we worry about the inherent "liability" of NPS for posting such useful information smacks of our collective fear of litigation. We fear that after "the worst happens" we all might lose access. (Perhaps an attorney more familiar with such matters can chime in here.) Maybe my Yankee nature is resistant to such an admission.
Of course terrain can be dangerous. Slot canyons in a rainstorm, slickrock singletrack that drops off to nothing, Mt Washington on a fine winter's day that Ed describes. Bad things sometimes just happen.
|
|
curlie
Trad climber
SLO, CA
|
|
|
Jun 21, 2007 - 02:01am PT
|
More warning signs? You mean like this one?
Death happens. Unfortunate, yes. Anyone's responsibility? No.
I mean, sh#t, I could poke my eye out with my toothbrush. There should be a warning sign!
|
|
quasitrad
Trad climber
Corvallis, OR
|
|
|
Jun 21, 2007 - 02:15am PT
|
Right, curlie. It's very sad to hear stories like this. But, if he had died on the drive up there it would never have made the news.
|
|
Bargainhunter
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, CA
|
|
|
Jun 21, 2007 - 05:26am PT
|
When I climbed Snake Dike about 10 years ago, I thought the gnarliest part was descending the cables. There were so many tourists ascending, I couldn't believe that the park service was allowing these people up the peak. I felt sure that I was going to witness someone die. The cables are not a route for the timid, weak trail walker...one slip and, unless you happen to grab a cable support, you are toast.
|
|
ricardo
Gym climber
San Francisco, CA
|
|
|
Jun 21, 2007 - 06:10am PT
|
i've climbed the cables once .. and descended them twice .. (did snake dike) ..
.. my experience as a hiker was pretty scary .. if it hadn't been for the group of cute girls behind me .. i would have turned back .. slippery, and steep..
.. coming down isn't nearly as bad ..
.. this led to my different approach when descending the cables after snake dike .. i kept the climbing shoes on .. and clipped 2 slings to the cables just in case .. pretty safe if you ask me .. so i don't see why other folks couldn't do that too ..
|
|
Wild Bill
climber
Ca
|
|
|
Jun 21, 2007 - 12:35pm PT
|
|
|
Wild Bill
climber
Ca
|
|
|
Jun 21, 2007 - 12:39pm PT
|
|
|
Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
|
|
|
Jun 21, 2007 - 12:42pm PT
|
Well, I've now read over a thousand posts on this subject in various forums (the SFgate forum was particularly interesting....and long), and I admit to a fair amount of astonishment by what some have done. For example one person posted (paraphrased)
*We got to the cables, and it was obviously very dangerous and a disaster waiting to happen. My 14 yo niece and I got to the top ok*
And this sort of thing is repeated by people over and again!
They clearly know it is dangerous, they have no special climbing skills, and they climb it anyway. Doh!
I cannot believe that these folks will be deterred by a sign.
However, it is clear that there has been a marked increase in people going up in the last few years, and this logjam creates an environment where one slightly nutty person, acting out, can really set the stage for disaster.
I've been trying to think of what can be done that will actually have an effect, not require millions of dollars and decades of NEPAs, and will be simple to maintain.
I find most of the suggestions a little absurd, as they are in reaction to this fall, but would not have altered this outcome....for example, putting in a telephone at the start of the cables.
It's real simple....don't let go of the cable. Ever. (Just....like....the....belay....rope.)
So, I'm leaning towards an education process. Maybe 2-3 times a day, run a video on climbing HD, in an appropriate venue. Cover the basics, cover the judgement issues, cover the safety issues, cover early starts to eliminate having to abandon due to crowds on the cables. Paint it dark and miserable, and that'll cut down on the hordes. It'll be entertaining to the folks not doing a climb, also.
There really seems to be one real issue, and that is the volume of people....but it is only a volume problem for about 4 hours/day. The other 20 hours a day, no problem. So, it is really just a matter of spreading the people out.
Yep, the first step is always education.
|
|
troutboy
Trad climber
Newark, DE
|
|
|
Jun 21, 2007 - 12:45pm PT
|
"I can only speak to how I think. Call me naive but I tended to think that if "they" let people do it (by the zillions, no less) it must be OK and safe. When things ARE dangerous, we are warned ad infinitum not to do it - for example, not to "hot pot" at Yellowstone i.e. swim in thermal pools or else walk off the trails. They warn you zillions of times not to do it. Same with the buffalo - you are virtually paralyzed with fear for all the warnings they give you about not getting near them. At the Grand Canyon, the Bright Angel trail is filled with warnings advising you to turn back if you do not have adequate water or else if you are not in good shape. They really drive home the point."
This is an interesting point. Especially here on the East Coast you are either repeatedly warned about everything (even if it really isn't dangerous), or prevented from doing something dangerous by a fence, a gate, or other barrier.
In the west, it seems different. Out there (especially outside of the NPS arena), you are allowed to do potentially dangerous things without major warnings. It's very easy, from an average East Coast touron perspective, to assume exactly what is stated above - if there is no warning, it must be safe to do.
Tim S.
|
|
Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
|
|
|
Jun 21, 2007 - 12:49pm PT
|
An optional "training video" might be a great thing for those who felt like they needed it. I'm not sure you could teach anyone much that common sense wouldn't dictate, but it might make people feel better.
"However, it is clear that there has been a marked increase in people going up in the last few years, and this logjam creates an environment where one slightly nutty person, acting out, can really set the stage for disaster."
On this point, I have to say that we're protected by the same thing that keeps the vast majority of gun owners from opening fire on crowds every time they have a bad day or iritated drivers from heading up the wrong side of the freeway after a bad day of work. To kill everyone else, you pretty much need to kill yourself. And the evidence would suggest that most people don't really want to do either.
|
|
Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
|
|
|
Jun 21, 2007 - 12:52pm PT
|
I don't remember enough about those cables to know if they are dicey or not. And I had a pack on my back, two ropes and a rack. Is that thing really 50 degrees? That seems a bit steep.
Nevertheless the Park Service is in a sticky place when people keep dying on the thing. You can't very well shut it down -- who would ever enforce such a thing, and how, when folks are scaling the far steeper face just arond the corner? Maybe some kind of mandatory harness and clip-in system, like in Europe. Or a permit or background check. Can't say but I guess the deaths have to be addressed somehow. Or do they?
JL
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!