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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Jun 18, 2007 - 12:10pm PT
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It's a real problem that there's two-way traffic on those cables.
The first time I saw them I was coming down from Snake Dike. At that time I was amazed that people didn't die there daily. It was a total zoo, with many folks on the "route" (or bowling alley?) at the same time.
I was a bit gripped going down and wondered about the average hiker who made the summit. With going down so much harder than going up, the folks who are scared when they go up must have a real time going down.
That the NPS has just had a stack of gloves there, and nothing else, mystifies me. Being in America, I thought "Liability!" all the way. Shoot, if a guy can sue for a leaky john at the top of Glacier Point, it's not too hard to imagine a case against the HD cables.
Add a third cable to make it a two-way trail and a sign saying proper climbing gear is required (ala via ferrata). This would make it safer and limit liability for those without gear.
The Village People would like this (more sales of climbing gear!) and the folks getting to the top would probably like it too (with the gear, they'd feel like they were actually climbing).
The climb is serious; keeping it a free-for-all spells trouble.
EDIT: Now, who's up for hand-drilling 1" holes for the third cable?
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the Fet
Knackered climber
A bivy sack in the secret campground
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Jun 18, 2007 - 12:35pm PT
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One post on another site linked to, said the guy dropped his water bottle, went to reach for it, and slipped. We can't protect people from themselves. Otherwise we'd have to close every trail near a cliff.
Moving the cables is a bad idea. It will just get worn smooth again, then what? Move them again and again?
Maybe they could use a sandblaster or something to roughen it up yearly. Or double the number of board steps.
Lanyards available for rent (if possible) or for sale at the Mtn Shop and encouraged by the NPS is a good idea. But they should not be required. What's next? No free soloing, no climbing without a guide?
Yeah it's a zoo up there. Hundreds of people. But I can hold on the cables with gloved hands and be perfectly fine, last time I skied down (sliding on my feet) holding the cables. While some people can barely move up there they are so panic stricken. Ane some people are stupid and dangerouse. And some people make unfortuneate mistakes.
That is one of the best experiences many people will ever have. Removing the cables because a few people made mistakes is a terrbile idea IMO.
The only thing that needs to be changed is the public should be made aware that they should use lanyards if needed, and they should take a look at maintaining the surface or adding steps. THAT'S IT!
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jun 18, 2007 - 12:39pm PT
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I was wondering if anyone has hard information on the cables, and their use. When they were placed, by who, with what rationale. Subsequent work and improvements. Usage then and now. Accidents. NPS policies.
It would also be interesting to know how closely (if at all) the cables correspond with Anderson's route, and how (if at all) people got up Half Dome between the demise of that, and the time the cables were placed.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Jun 18, 2007 - 12:43pm PT
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Like it or not, Anderson's cable ladder is a very historic route to the major summit. Take it down and people will try anything to get back up there. Take this brave soul for instance.
I think YOSAR would vastly prefer the status quo to meatballs with every course! Pardon my black humor, but folks are going to keep trying with widely varying consequences. You can't protect people from themselves beyond duty to inform. IMO
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andanother
climber
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Jun 18, 2007 - 01:08pm PT
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I think a much more logical solution is to restrict people from going outdoors at all.
Yeah, people die from slipping off the cables. They're dangerous.
But so is the SUN!!!! The hike to the top of Half Dome takes most of a day. And during most of that time, you are exposed to the sun's evil rays. Skin cancer kills MANY more people each year. The cables seem insignificant when you consider the bigger picture.
And what about alien abductions? Do you think those trees are going to protect you from their tractor beams?
And speaking of trees, those things can fall down you know! If we're going to continue to allow people to hike to Half Dome, we NEED to cut down all those trees! That's an accident waiting to happen! Do you know how many people die each year from falling trees?!?!?!
It's pretty obvious that human beings can't take responsibilty for themselves. That's why they created religions.
So, I think we should build a series of tunnels everywhere. People shouldn't be driving automobiles anyway. Automobiles KILL!!!!!!
Stay indoors! Be afraid! Dumb down everything to accomodate the lowest common denominator!
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Jun 18, 2007 - 01:21pm PT
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More regulation is not hte answer. How many climbers have gone up or down the cables without via ferrata equipment?
Oh, thats right, since we are technical climbers the rules dont apply to us? Right? Wrong. How would you like to have to haul via ferrata leashes up a tech route on Half Dome because that was the reg?
The other thing? Regs here could lead to regs elsewhere. I can hear it now, "Clearly from the NPS Viewpoint, Snakedike is a very unprotected route and must be altered to be safe." Perhaps it sounds draconian; however, it is a progression and acceptance of loss of freedoms when the man tells you HOW to climb something.
I am saddened about this; however, I dont see more regs as being a favourable result, especially for climbers. Face it, if you were going to take your Grandma up there you would probably think of and bring some method to help her get safely down and up the thing.
RIP and my thoughts are with the victims families and friends.
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 18, 2007 - 03:25pm PT
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You all are becoming drama queens about this. Leave the cables alone!
Or you can have this if you want instead.
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andanother
climber
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Jun 18, 2007 - 03:35pm PT
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Those colors wouldn't really mesh with granite tones, thus detracting from the "wilderness experience".
Can I get that in "slate gray" or similar?
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Tahoe climber
Trad climber
a dark-green forester out west
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Jun 18, 2007 - 03:43pm PT
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Leave the cables alone.
Be prepared, and careful.
Like any other peak or mountain or ravine or whatever - danger is inherent, no matter how many cables are up there.
Don't move them and smooth out another area.
Don't regulate them.
-Aaron
ps: hell, just take them out. if you want to look off the top, then you must learn the skills to get up there. that's the way it is everywhere, on every peak! right now the skills necessary include hiking on a slippery slope without falling - you don't have the skill, you can't do it! try to do it w/o the skill, you might die.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jun 18, 2007 - 03:48pm PT
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I bet nobody blocks 46 on the cables.
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John Vawter
Social climber
San Diego
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Jun 18, 2007 - 04:12pm PT
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Those economically disadvantaged folks can't afford to drive there either. Let's give them free gasoline, park entrance, and campsites too.
Now, let's talk about handicap access. We're gonna need the mother of all ramps.
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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Jun 18, 2007 - 04:48pm PT
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I'm saddened to hear of the accident, and I wish the best for the grieving family and friends.
With that said, I completely take the side of personal responsibility on this one. I went up and down the cables once, about five years ago. My gf at the time didn't feel comfortable, and i didn't pressure her, so she waited below. What's wrong with that?
I do not believe the cables should be moved or added to, though if they want to add another lane, that's up to the Park Service to decide, and I don't think it would be terrible if they did.
But I do think it would be terrible if a lot of people started doing it with via-ferrata gear. Put gear on people, and they start behaving more recklessly. If the via-ferrata gear isn't required, then you'll have falling hikers knocking people off as they slip down to the next post. That would be a terrible outcome, and I believe it would happen with some frequency.
GO
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jun 18, 2007 - 05:08pm PT
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Why stop there?
How about two lanes going up and one down?
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jaystone
Trad climber
EDH, Ca
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Jun 18, 2007 - 05:16pm PT
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First, my condolences to friends and family.
I descended the cables a little over a month ago coming down from Snake Dike. I don't think they should be altered to accommodate the *masses*.
But, I find the lack of warning interesting. I did a couple miles up and down the Angel Bright Trail in GCNP with my son last year. The message from the park was plain as day - YOU CAN DIE! This was all over various web sites, publications, and signs at the trailhead in the village.
http://www.nps.gov/grca/planyourvisit/hike-smart.htm
Although the statistics in the canyon at some point forced their hand, pro-actively, it may not be a bad idea to place a sign at the start of the cables simply stating...YOU CAN DIE!
This will not *solve* anything, but could serve as a reminder of the risk and put people on alert. A few memorials for those who have perished could also help remind people it is not a set of stairs and the consequence can easily be of highest order.
IMO, the public tends to minimize the risk associated with activities in National Parks because they feel they are protected from anything *really* dangerous.
Namaste!
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Standing Strong
Trad climber
look around look around, tell me what you've found
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 18, 2007 - 05:20pm PT
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"We're gonna need the mother of all ramps..."
why put in a ramp when you could put in a super slide?!
since the valley is more like an amusement park anyways. ugh.
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BobT
Social climber
Pleasanton, CA
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Jun 18, 2007 - 05:29pm PT
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I do not do technical climbing. I love taking class 2 and class 3 routes to beautiful places and mountain tops, and I can cope with an occasional class 4 move, but I'm guessing that's the most I'll do for the rest of my life. I have been up and down the cables, and I have mixed feelings about their existence.
The National Park Service over 30 years ago decided to try to make things more "natural," and removed or stopped many things. There is no more firefall in Yosemite. There are no more cables up the north face of Longs Peak (although people can still get to the top in the summer without a technical climb via the Keyhole Route even if there is a lot of class 3 terrain and what many describe as a class 4 move). The NPS no longer paints "fried eggs" on routes. Various things, however, were left, like the cables at Half Dome. I'm not sure how the NPS decided what was left and what was removed, but there can be no doubt that the NPS would not make the decision to install cables today if they weren't already up.
Climbing Half Dome is a great experience for those in shape to do it and those who won't panic on the cables.
But why is it essential to have such an experience available? There are so many beautiful places in the world to see that don't require technical climbs or artificial aids for those who aren't climbers. There are many beautiful places that require technical climbs for which the NPS has not installed aids for non-climbers. There are places in the park that are just as beautiful, easier to go to, and more pleasant to go to, why isn't it good enough for us non-climbers to have those?
If you remove the cables, I don't think you'll find non-climbers trying to go up anyway. It would end Half Dome as a great attraction for non-climbers, although maybe it would inspire a few more people to take up climbing. I would almost certainly never go to the top of Half Dome again. It would not break my heart. I would not be mad that Half Dome is left only to climbers and that regular old hikers like me would be left in the cold -- if I really want to get to the top of a place like Half Dome, then I can become a climber. If God meant for non-climbers like me to get to the top, it wouldn't have been made so steep and smooth.
On the other hand, I don't think it is horrible if the cables are left up, either. They have been there a long time, and fine, they give people like me a chance to get to the top, which is nice even if not necessary. I do think, however, that there are fixes that could be made to improve safety, whether that means having a dedicated up side and a dedicated down side, or limiting the numbers of people who can go up per day (the crowding now is pretty absurd), or slight alteration in the design and/or location, and if the NPS isn't going to remove the cables, then they should do something to improve safety.
Sure, there are risks in life, we shouldn't bubble wrap everyone in the country, but the reality is that far too many people who go up and down the cables don't appreciate what they are getting into. I hear it all the time -- if the NPS has the cables up as part of a hiking route, then it must be safe to do it. Well, sort of.
The only reason non-climbers somehow feel entitled to have the cables up is because they have been up for so long. Take them down, and eventually people will get over it, and Half Dome will be like any other peak that is a technical climb. Or leave them up and do something to improve safety. I think status quo, however, is not the way to go.
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the Fet
Knackered climber
A bivy sack in the secret campground
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Jun 18, 2007 - 05:30pm PT
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I'd like a zip line from the summit to El Cap Meadow, now THAT would be cool.
It's also telling that when I've come down from the summit at say 4PM, you see people on their way UP all the way down to the campground. Not people with headlamps, etc. going for a night ascent, but probably people that will have hiked all the way to the cables just as it get's dark, only to turn around, and have hiked all that way and not summit, bummer.
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Gene
climber
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Jun 18, 2007 - 05:47pm PT
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From what I have read, this was a freak accident. The victim was wearing a large backpack, slipped, and his leg caught on one of the stanchions holding the cables. If you are top heavy, slip, and hook a leg, and get turned around, not much you can do.
Sad.
Keep the cables up. They have been there forever. They are probably statistically safer than the drive to the Valley.
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steelmnkey
climber
Vision man...ya gotta have vision...
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Jun 18, 2007 - 06:12pm PT
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Tourist Falls, Dies While Climbing Half Dome
POSTED: 10:40 am PDT June 18, 2007
A 37-year-old Japanese man has been killed while hiking up Yosemite's Half Dome.
Authorities said Hirofumi Nohara slipped and fell while ascending the 48-hundred-foot granite peak in Yosemite National Park Saturday afternoon.
Members of a church group who were hiking in the area saw Nohara lose his footing about three-quarters of the way up the steep slope. They watched in horror as he tumbled down the mountainside.
Nohara was pronounced dead at the scene.
An initial investigation by the National Park Service says he did not appear to be doing anything unsafe.
A park spokeswoman says about ten to 12 people die in Yosemite each year, but very few fatalities are on Half Dome.
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Quaken
Trad climber
Las Vegas
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Jun 18, 2007 - 06:34pm PT
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I saw a Monster Sized Jackrabbit up there once. I always wondered how he got up there. Maybe got away from a bird or somthing. I don't think he went spronging up the 2x4's. I chased him around for a bit and noticed that he really watched out where he was going, way more so than the ones here in the desert. He must have been up there for sometime.
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