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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Hi Michael
Since you admitted you haven't seen the Disclosure project videos, it seems you are the one blindly believing something. Those folks who spoke, and there is a much longer list on the website, are not "Believers" but personnel who have seen and experienced for themselves and are sharing their experience. Radar operators, fighter pilots, and so on.
Is it possible that they might have misinterpreted their experience? Sure! Is possible that what they say has been surpressed? Absolutely! Why? Who knows! It would be great to find out. Maybe because there are ufos. Maybe because they really witnessed secret military technology. I can't say, Can you? Have you really looked into this enough to comment the way you are? There was no physical evidence of the existence of giant squid until pretty recently.
Somebody sent me a hour video of these testimonies from former military officers and government intel types, and I have discussed it with a former presidental translator who has networked within the government with these folks, and he was stunned by it. Personally, I don't know and am keeping an open mind.
I do know there's a great deal that we say "no way" to in the moment and in a few years it's commonplace. There was a time when freeclimbing El Cap was a comepletely unthinkable possibility. Sometimes our lack of vision keeps us from seeing what's there. The barrier of 5.9 being the hardest grade in the world at one point was partly a mental barrier.
Peace
Karl
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nick d
Trad climber
nm
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Karl, what I actually believe are my own eyes. I've lived my whole life in country that is "famous" for ufo sightings, and I spend a lot of time outdooors, a lot of nights out. I am an observant person and yet I've never seen anything I couldn't understand. I have seen a lot of great sights in the skies, bats, birds, planets, meteors, and a boatload of aircraft. But...nothing beyond that. I find it amusing that one of the arguments you use is that your witnesses have obtained some job slot you deem important. I have never assumed that someones job title lent them credibility. Like I said before, lets see some evidence baby! I dont deny the universe is stranger than we can imagine, but even the incredibly implausible findings of quantum physics can be shown by evidence. Just fantasizing about things doesn't make them real.
ps regards the giant squid, your statement is incorrect. Physical evidence of them has been known for centuries. Dead ones floating at the surface, contained in whale stomachs, netted with fish, etc... Even brief sightings by sailors of living animals. Only very recently have they been photographed alive, which is what I believe you alluded to.
Michael
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Hi MIchael
You're right about the squid I think. It felt a bit sideways when I posted it.
you wrote 'Karl, what I actually believe are my own eyes.
That's too limited. All around you in this moment there are cell calls, hundreds of tv channels, gamma rays, infrared and Ultraviolet. Who are you to say the parameters of other life? The difference between aliens and angels maybe be less than we imagine.
Any craft that could travel the distance required by space physics, isn't going to drip oil on your land. Just as your plant or cat can't understand the mentality and perspective you have, we also find conceiving what perhaps billions of years of evolution has brought to other life. We've only had civilization for tens of thousands.
Not saying to believe, just keep the mind open to the unknown and see what evolves.
Peace
Karl
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nick d
Trad climber
nm
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Karl said,"The difference between aliens and angels maybe be less than we imagine." Like I said, different church!
Michael
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Not a fair comment Michael. Have you reviewed their testimony? It's almost all "This is what happened to me and this is how the government reacted."
Not much speculation and tin foil hat stuff. THere's plenty of that elsewhere.
Peace
Karl
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 12, 2007 - 12:51am PT
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On tricky Dick Cheney's deathbed he will reveal 911 secrets?
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nick d
Trad climber
nm
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Jul 12, 2007 - 01:01am PT
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Klimmer, and Karl too! First I must apologize for using the pejorative term "nut" to describe ufo believers. I myself am an ecology "nut", and I believe walking to work every day makes some kind of a difference in the world. Thats the belief system I work on. Next, "credible witnesses"? OK, looking at your list of links Klimmer I am going to spotlight "Former Canadian Defense Minister Hon. Paul Hellyer". Not to defame my Canadian brethren, but that is a little league version of our secretary of defense job. Recently held by who else? Why little Donny Rumsfeld! If you think that motherf*#ker is credible in any sense of the word I guess I'm not surprised you also believe in ufo's. Job titles dont lend credibility, evidence does. Paul Hellyer is almost certainly more credible than rummy, but the headline "UFO Technology Could Provide Climate Change Solutions" suggest to me that he has a line on said ufo technology. So I guess I want to see some mechanical drawings, working models, etc... Oh yeah, I guess I want to see his sources, machinery, alien buddies, stuff like that. See, with just a tiny shred of evidence you could bring me right around. Also as a footnote, I have friends that grew up in Roswell who say that Col. Corso never espoused any such stories until he came to the realization there was some cash at stake in giving interviews. There is a very real difference between evidence and speculation, and I'm eagerly awaiting some evidence. Dish it up gentleman
Michael
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 12, 2007 - 10:56am PT
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Nick d,
Watch the speech by Hayer and the interview with Col. Corso, since I can tell by your responses you haven't at all.
Hellyer came to this knowledge after he was in office and retired. Col. Corso was not at the Roswell event and wasn't in the chain of command for that historic and continued cover-up, but he did see the bodies at another base while they were being transported and in route. His responsibilities in DC put him in charge and eye-witness to many very interesting things (ET materials). He was also instrumental in sending these technologies to specific Aerospace Industry Companies for back-engineering and further development.
These guys especially Corso are direct eye-witnesses.
People die over this stuff. You think they are going to loan out these materials and evidence so we can all see it and hold it? This black shadow government doesn't want the world to know what it knows. It does not matter who is in office. This shadow government is self-contained. They demand secrecy and cover-up for their world view to perpetually continue, for their amoral and criminal deeds, not to mention the control of power and energy they now possess. An oil-based economy or any thing else they can control is what they are after. They are after Power, doing black-ops to hold onto that power, military superiority, illegal drug running and other means to raise the money for their secret shadow government, death threats and assisinations to keep it all secret, and holding onto advanced technology for their own selfish benefit are what they are about.
Letting this stuff be known publically and letting this technology out in its full glory would radically change the game, and they would lose the strangle hold they have over the citizens of Earth.
But disclosure is happening whether they like it or not.
See, some people have a conscience and actually care for the people of this Earth. They also have hope for the future and want to leave the Earth in a better state of affairs for their children and grand-children. This is what motivates many to come forward. And since nearly all are threatened with their lives and the lives of their family, many don't spill the beans until they are on their death beds. Funny how quiet people can be about things when their lives depend on it.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jul 12, 2007 - 11:19am PT
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The problem with all UFOlogy is it starts with the human 'testimony' and works backwards to the science.
The basic underlying assumption in all such discussions is that someone, somewhere has figured out how to generate and navigate wormholes or master time travel. There is no other way of dealing with the time, distance, and energies involved. The odds of other forms of intelligent life both accomplishing that and detecting Earth are both pretty damn slim to non-existent; the odds of putting them together is orders of magnitude less likely. The odds of any form of intelligent life doing it to visit Earth more than once is essentially zero in the time frames typically discussed. And the odds of multiple intelligent life forms visiting Earth multiple times in recent history is so ludicrous as to define the very nature of delusion.
In essence, UFO beliefs are indistinguishable from religious ones.
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 12, 2007 - 12:17pm PT
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"The problem with all UFOlogy is it starts with the human 'testimony' and works backwards to the science."
Ooops, exactly what you're doing too, to make your counterpoint.
Modern science does not have all the answers either.
A lot of science is flawed due to human flaws and imperfect instruments.
You really think we are the only intelligent beings in this entire cosmic creation?
That surely is the flawed logic of the frog who lives in the well.
"All the universal knowledge you have has come to you through the limited perceptions of the scientists who's universal vision is not much more valuable than the vision a frog in a well has of the universe. The frog has spent his whole life at the bottom of a well three feet wide but he has developed so much philosophy, he thinks his universal vision is perfect, but what does he know?"
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jul 12, 2007 - 12:51pm PT
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No Werner, I think intelligent life is a dime-a-dozen deal and percolates widely if not fairly uniformly througout the universe (and probably multiverses) - the difficulty in them interacting with one another is simply the tremendous thresholds of time, distance, and energy one would have to overcome to do so. We're talking trillions of miles, centuries of travel, and fantastic amounts of energies. As I said, time travel, wormholes, or something similar would have to be mastered to accomplish any visitation. And visitation would come only after detection. And multiple visits since, say even the 1936 Olympics? Or by multiple alien species? Sorry, I'll be buying the odds on reincarnation before I buy that...
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 12, 2007 - 02:01pm PT
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There are souls who can travel through the universes at will without mechanical means instantly.
Like I've said before, frog in the well consciousness is still the logic of so called advanced modern science..
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 12, 2007 - 02:09pm PT
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Within this material world there is a planet called Siddhaloka, whose inhabitants can go from one planet to another without the aid of a machine or space rocket.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jul 12, 2007 - 02:40pm PT
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I'd say more like every planet with intelligent life is like a frog in a well and that the odds of two well shafts ever lining up in time and space and a frog being able to jump from one to the other is pretty damn slim. Unless of course, you are correct and technology indistinquishable from magic is almost as common as intelligent life itself.
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 12, 2007 - 02:54pm PT
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"I'd say more like every planet with intelligent life is like a frog in a well....."
Mental speculation and projecting your thoughts is not science.
The same science you hold so dear.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Jul 12, 2007 - 03:19pm PT
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I can't believe that intelligent life would still be using dial up.
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jacs
climber
Colorado
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Jul 12, 2007 - 04:08pm PT
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Some amazing faith in government here.
Its pretty much consensus that we have one of the most incompetent governments imagineable. Yet when it comes to UFOs they suddenly are masters of stealth and deception?? Now way that bunch of clowns could hide a secret that big.
The truth is NOT out there.
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dirtbag
climber
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Jul 12, 2007 - 04:12pm PT
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Some folks believe in 9/11 conspiracies too.
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