Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
ricardo
Gym climber
San Francisco, CA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 10, 2007 - 11:07pm PT
|
hats off to the lads who completed a hammerless ascent .. it takes some sack to pull that off IMO ..
... but steve .. c'mon .. sometimes its just plain fun to nail something on el cap .. -- i mean you're suffering a bit.. and its just pay back .. :-)
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Jun 10, 2007 - 11:58pm PT
|
Zodiac pre cleaned circa 1900's whatever year it was.
We get the call somebody hit the deck at the base of the Zodiac.
Arrive to find some euro on the deck seeing stars and somehow smiling. Both ankles looking not right but out in left field somewhere.
Then he opens his mouth and tries to say he's all right only to see his front teeth missing, and he's still got that goofy look going.
Somebody says go look for his teeth. Down on my hands and knees squinting around I find his teeth and put em in his mouth.
The medics say the good dentist will just put em back in their proper sockets and he'll be biting the forbidden apple again in no time.
Some dumb ass took the hanger off the bolt after the hook moves off the ground and he stood on a fixed time bomb head and paid the price.
Moral of the story like Ammon says "Using fixed gear and saying hammerless is just plain bull'shit"
Sure, .... you can always play the mind games.
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Jun 11, 2007 - 01:53am PT
|
A clean or hammerless ascent represents a level of accomplishment that does it fact mean something. While I agree that the level of achievement is reduced as the number of actual placements shrinks to nothing, starting up a huge rock wall with no hammers is no small matter or mind game. What is the point of all the thrashing and dangling if not challenge? Clean aid is more challenging than nailing, hammerless climbing more adventurous still. If you have to quibble about cheads then report them too so everything is fair. Hammerless C17. Now the next party has something to strive for, C16 or less!
There is always this silly notion that a party claiming the first clean or hammerless has somehow cheated or bent the rules in doing so. Undertaking hardship and risk to slow the degradation of our shared vertical environment hasn't been an empty learning process for me, but I have been fortunate enough to see pristine stone with all its possibilities intact. All the unnecessary scarring is a sorry legacy and it is a matter of resolve or lack thereof to leave no trace. Each and every climber, each and every placement.
I have said this before and need to repeat it. I will never fault a person's best effort and only seek to encourage it. Difficult aid is all about resolve, confidence and technique just like tricky clean aid so the more challenging, the better, cheads or not. The evolution of hardware provides for a sustainable future aesthetically if we collectively do our best.
|
|
Robb
Social climber
Under a Big Sky
|
|
|
Jun 11, 2007 - 02:40pm PT
|
Not to detract from the present, but way back when, say about Oct. '81, Zodiac was bountiful. Not only was it an awesome route, but we collected at least a dozen pins before we were done. Nice exposure & free pins for the taking!
|
|
up2top
Big Wall climber
Phoenix, AZ
|
|
|
Jun 11, 2007 - 06:47pm PT
|
Everyone I know who aids strives to climb as clean as possible, but the problem is we are all not equal. Not physically -- what held you on the Black Tower pitch may very well rip for me, being larger and less graceful. Not mentally -- Ammon may be cool with running up P13 with two #4 Camalots and a smile, but I'm brining a #5 or two. Does that mean only those under 180 lbs and balls that account for nearly a 1/3 that weight should be allow to climb Zodiac? Not in my opinion. I'll get my fat ass back on it some time soon with a good assortment of large cams and thin blades. A hammer, too. I hope I don't need the hammer and pins, and I'll do everything I can -- within my ability -- to climb it clean, but I'll nail if I have to.
That's my call. Why? Because it my f*#king climb. And I'll climb for me and in what every style I want to. You climb how you see fit. And, please, let's not make the mistake of thinking that just because you do an ascent without a hammer that you're not having any impact on the route. We all leave our mark. We certainly should strive to leave as little as possible, but you're being intellectualy dishonest with yourself if you think you're better than the next guy just because you didn't nail.
Ed
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Jun 11, 2007 - 09:34pm PT
|
This about rock preservation not chest beating. Like I said everybody just needs to honestly do their best, that's it. Once you master aid and know right where the bodyweight line is, a lot becomes possible. Hard won knowledge but moving lightly has always been my goal while improving my technique. Your scene is obviously your business........If you are already striving for low impact why take offense when I advocate that you (and everybody else) resolve to reach inside for the resources to do your best?
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Jun 11, 2007 - 09:38pm PT
|
I agree Steve.
We still just want play with your mind. :-)
Don't worry Steve the whole general conscientious effort of the climbing world is headed that way (rock preservation).
|
|
ricardo
Gym climber
San Francisco, CA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 11, 2007 - 09:42pm PT
|
.. fo shu! --
.. when is your next date with zodiac ed? --
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Jun 11, 2007 - 09:47pm PT
|
Just rolling my stone.....
|
|
up2top
Big Wall climber
Phoenix, AZ
|
|
|
Jun 11, 2007 - 11:51pm PT
|
Steve, I'm not really taking offense at all for being a proponent of giving it your best shot with the best ethics possible. It's just that we are NOT all of equal talents and there's a certain elitism that creeps into conversations of those who Monday morning quarterback everyone else's climbing style. I don't advocate that a gumbie with a couple of aid pitches under his/her belt walk up to the base of Zodiac and give it a whirl. But, fact is it happens and I have no right to tell someone they should or shouldn't. I'll bet Ricardo would be the first to admit that he was an inexperienced aid climber the first time he got on Zodiac, but he did it anyways and did it in his own style, and most importantly he has some tremendous experiences that he'll remember the rest of his life. He succeeded despite great odds that he was likely biting off more than he could chew. I'm sure he'd also be the first to tell you that he could have done it in better style with less impact had he waited a few more seasons. I think it's great he went back to do it again this year and I'm sure he has some of the best perspective, not only on what the climb was like pre/post clean up, but what it was like as a big wall n00b vs. a few years later with more experience.
My best effort isn't going to be as low impact as a Huber Bro's fre ascent. Does that mean that now that the line has gone free no one else should climb the route unless they, too, can free it? Nope. Same thing with nailing. Just because you (hypothetical "you"), who weighs 140 lbs and was a world class gymnast in college, can stand on a flared #1 HB offset on the Black Tower pitch doesn't mean that it's going to hold my crippled, fat ass when I get on it. I may need to nail, where as you didn't. Bottom line for me is I'm going to climb as low impact as I can but I couldn't give two shakes if the audience is holding up numbers in the meadow rating the quality of my style on each pitch. I'm going to do what I need to do with the limited physical talents I have. Just because I suck at climbing doesn't mean I shouldn't.
Ricardo -- next year, definitely. I've already started training. I'll be in the Valley in a couple of weeks -- looking forward to seeing some of you.
Ed
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Jun 12, 2007 - 12:43am PT
|
Steve Grossman 140 pounds and Olympic gymnast. Bawwwhahaha
up2top
Steve is a big dude. I used to be amazed at how he could do all that horrendous hard aid and not blow.
Anyways that's besides the point. He's not telling you how to climb, he's suggesting. It's subtle, and you'll be up there somewhere and you'll remember some of the things he's said just when you're ready to nail a piece and then you just might see a passive way out that works.
If not, no big deal, but he's just trying to get the consciousness moving that direction. It's not elitism, but preservation.
Try not take it so personal.
|
|
Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
|
|
|
Jun 12, 2007 - 01:19am PT
|
Radical said:
"Lambone you are such a predictable ass hole..."
Yeah I guess.
Lets go back to the statement that I was mocking/being an as#@&%e about.
"I banged 2 sawed offs into the obvious spots just because I had never done that and it seemed like a reasonable thing to do..."
Now, why am I an ass hole for not supporting this attitude towards pounding pins?
Ask anyone where you should learn to place your first pins, and where you should practice your first pins. Will anyone one say a classic trade route on El Cap? There are obvious spots for pins on all sorts of trade routes on El Cap, they are called pin scars. If every one nails in every obvious spot then soon every route is going to look like the Shield.
I'm not saying I am perfect, or an elite clean climber. I've pounded my fair share of pins on routes that have been done clean. But the difference being that I allways tried everything I could to get a clean placement to stick first, and I failed in skill and balls.
It's one thing to place a pin because you have exahusted all other options, or are just plain scared of taking a big fall. It's another thing entirely to place a pin just for the fun of it...which is how I read your initial post.
Good day, have fun.
|
|
Ammon
Big Wall climber
El Cap
|
|
|
Jun 12, 2007 - 02:01pm PT
|
"Just rolling my stone.....
You nailed it! Clean climbing is YOUR legacy and you love rubbing people’s nose in it… therefore coming off looking like an ass.
|
|
Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
|
|
|
Jun 12, 2007 - 03:30pm PT
|
yeah Riley I hear ya. My clean ethic pretty much goes out the window when I have something like the Black Tower under me.
I wasn't really picking on you in particular. just in the attitude about Zodiac since the clean up in general.
I guess what i should really do is sac up and try to climb it clean myself.
|
|
Off White
climber
Tenino, WA
|
|
|
Jun 12, 2007 - 05:17pm PT
|
Ammon said: "You nailed it! Clean climbing is YOUR legacy and you love rubbing people’s nose in it… therefore coming off looking like an ass."
Funny, but you don't sound as nice and humble as everyone says you are. Clean climbing is no one person's legacy, it's an ideal we should all strive for. Are you disowning the concept?
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Jun 12, 2007 - 05:25pm PT
|
Keep up the good fight Steve.
All I hear are rationalizations for selfishness.
Eventually the park service will have little choice but to ban nailing, but between now and then many routes will be destroyed in tiny increments by people who tell themselves that they're not doing "much" harm or that they're excercising a traditional right or that they've earned the right to be a whack merchant because they're displaying such skill.
Gawd what BS!
All they're really doing is saying, "ME. ME. ME."
|
|
Euroford
Trad climber
chicago
|
|
|
Jun 12, 2007 - 05:58pm PT
|
too bad we aren't talking about climbing zodiac anymore...
be kind of nice if we could just talk about a wall route and not have it swing around into the same old nailing talk...
oh god.. i feel the pull... the unrelenting sucking going on has caught and pulled me in...
i'm all for clean climbing, but i don't think one clean/hammerless ascent is the birth of a 'clean' route. i don't believe we'll ever see a route become 'clean' at any grade higher than C3 and i think it needs to be fairly straightforward at that.
when i say 'clean' route like that, i mean the kind of route somebody should get their ass kicked for nailing. this would be the kind of route that goes clean with a fairly typical rack. aliens, hb offsets, rps, some ballnutz and camhooks maybe.
i think allot of pitches can go clean with a very well equipped and strong party, and if some dude gets a pitch clean with a dozen #0 brassies topstepping every one sending it at C4 instead of the guidebook A2, thats a pretty killer personal achievement. but really, the next guy that comes along is probably going to use the move conventional tactic and nail a couple of beaks.
lets just hope that someday that nailing makes a placement suitable for a #5 stopper, the pitch gets uprated to C3, the guidebook gets republished and -then- we throw a beatdown on the guy that just wants to play with his shiny new hammer.
i feel clean aid climbing is both a personal achievement and a community requirement, but i think their is not a clear guide between what one man may achieve and when the community needs to get behind it.
|
|
Off White
climber
Tenino, WA
|
|
|
Jun 12, 2007 - 06:05pm PT
|
yeah, I had a little thread drift twitch too, but the lure of the dark side is just too strong.
|
|
Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
|
|
|
Jun 12, 2007 - 06:48pm PT
|
"My best effort isn't going to be as low impact as a Huber Bro's fre ascent."
I think it would be much lower impact, actually...even if you need to nail at the Black Tower.
It's nice to see you posting again, Ed.
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Jun 12, 2007 - 07:46pm PT
|
Mike;
1) get Jello's blessing
2) get an illustrator or photographer that can do the job
But even if it becomes more readily available, being exposed to the info is one thing, implementing it while you ARE exposed is quite another.
My experience is that people taller than me are simply not willing to stand tall and make reaches equal to me when an alternative (even at the expense of the rock) is available.
When its OK to bend the rules the pussy factor comes into play.
Tim,
I'm sorry to hear you rationalize behavior that would result in route alteration based on rating.
And as long as people want to believe that C4 is unreasonable then there are less likely to BE C4s.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!