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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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May 17, 2007 - 03:46pm PT
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Anastasia is correct. This war is has unfolded exactly as predicted by every analysis done by Bush Sr.'s team during the gulf war and every cogent analysis done since - there have been absolutely no surprises. The reason W's team 'Never Saw It Coming' was that they were Reaganite Neocons who co-mingled the earlier perceived 'successes' of the Reagan administration against the Soviet Union with the Neocon fantasy that the Middle East just needed a 'push' to start a domino-effect towards democracy in the region. The combination of ego and fantasy created an inpentrable 'reality distortion field' around an adminstration bent on 'restoring America's greatness' and a crusade to convert the Middle East to democracy was just the place to start.
Being inside that reality distortion field allowed for a complete suspension of common sense, logic, and the denial of contrary analysis. This was nowhere better demonstrated than by the fact Cheney and Rumsfeld felt driven to establish a small 'independent' intelligent aparatus inside the DoD to manufacture and craft intelligence findings which would support the administration's action plans. To round things out the administration purged everyone who did not suspend reality with them, assigned protocol droids as Cabinet members to ride herd on all the agencies, and regularly firewalled off dissenting voices.
The war was a mistake, but even as a mistake the outcome could have been far better than what we see today. Had we:
 Gone in with 5-600k force levels
Sealed the borders with Syria and Iran
Took possession of the arms depots
Left the army and security forces standing
Left the majority of the political and administrative Baathists in place
Agressively and effectively restored the basic infrastructure
the outcome would have been quite different. The last item on the list in particular would have made a huge difference in the lives of ordinary Iraqis. But no one ever had any legitimate intent to restore the Iraqi infrastructure - it was simply a bacchanalian feast of corruption, theft, and influence peddling from day one.
The incompetence this administration has shown in matters of intelligence, state, military, and political affairs is incomparable in our history. They have been driven by a white, christian, male fantasy of 'restored greatness' and pursued with the machismo of an entitled outcome - the 'how' of it all did not so much escape them, as it was obviated by what they considered the certainty of it all if they simply set things in motion. That certainty, entitlement, and moral self-righteousness also ressurected the Nixonian spirit of "the end justifies any means" which has plagued every Republican administration from Nixon on. What is most interesting is how the culture of each successive Republican administration has become progressively more insular and criminal in their methods. This effect has now crescendoed with the current administration's breathtaking deconstruction of our government and Constitution. It has been an insidious form of treason given cover by the sad events of 9/11.
It will take a decade to clean house and reverse the worst of the damage done and that effort will be complicated every step of the way due to the appointment of two of the most activist Supreme Court justices in history. All in all, the combination of cluelessness, incompetence, arrogance, hubris, and fantasy has cost our nation dearly, and will continue to do so for years to come. As for the war - it will go down in the history books as the principal cause of a major Shiite uprising that emboldened and aided Iran and in the end resulted in Iraq coming under Chinese influence in the process of restoring the country.
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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May 17, 2007 - 07:11pm PT
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Wouldn't it be funny if...
george w b(iatc)h get's forced to admit he sent gonzo to ashcrofts ICU hotel room-
the right wing turns on him and, disgraced and (even more) ineffective, he is forced to resign-
leaving dick cheney as president!
...as a lame duck, and with impeachment proceedings not ready to begin, and he then had something like a year or 16 months worth of executive orders, the title of commander in chief, the power of the veto (and no interest in following the will of congress), the power of presidential pardons (can you pardon yourself?), an extreme ideology entirely unchecked, and a huge grudge/ chip on his shoulder.
then what?
i wouldn't want to be walking my dog on some quiet iranian/syrian/venezuelan street somewhere, that's 4 sure.
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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May 17, 2007 - 07:17pm PT
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"The last item on the list in particular would have made a huge difference in the lives of ordinary Iraqis. But no one ever had any legitimate intent to restore the Iraqi infrastructure"
try getting anything built here in the US by paying what are essentially start-up companies based abroad to be your contractors, and paying all of them cash in advance.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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May 17, 2007 - 07:27pm PT
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If things go south enough, look for Cheney to resign citing health reasons. Then Bush pardons Cheney and picks somebody who looks good on paper but will be loyal, heck, even a democrat like Lee Hamilton. Then Bush steps down and the new president pardons him in the name of national reconcilliation.
Alternately, Bush steps down, Cheney pardons him and chooses the loyal stooge, and then Cheney either steps down or takes the fall.
Worst case, they attack Iran so nobody will dare focus on investigation and prosecution in wartime
Peace
karl
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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May 17, 2007 - 07:34pm PT
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hmmm, maybe a stooge like fattrad can get into the administration after all...
spineless?
bloodthirsty?
not burdened by 'ethical concerns'?
willing to 'take one for the team' and 'go down with the ship', for historical cult figure status?
check
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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May 18, 2007 - 08:33am PT
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Worst case, they attack Iran so nobody will dare focus on investigation and prosecution in wartime.
And that is a scenario that could very well happen. Shudder.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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May 18, 2007 - 12:06pm PT
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Of course it won’t Fattrad, the US couldn’t go through an impeachment at this point in time – the people wouldn’t have the stomach for it and neither would Congress, chickensh*ts the lot of them.
But at the risk of sounding like a broken record, if Billy Boy can get impeached over lying about a blowjob/affair, then certainly the shenanigans of the Bush administration warrant much more.
But of course, you wouldn’t agree with that would you Fattrad, as you idolize those scumbags and clowns sitting in the White House.
Edit
Oops I initially spelt idolise the British/Irish way with an s. It's now corrected.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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May 18, 2007 - 02:10pm PT
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"I will agree to your views, if you are willing to refrain from posting if the 51st state chooses to use any weapon it may have in it's arsenal. "
Seems like the recent invasion of Lebanon was intended to spark the larger conflict with Iran but Israel failed in that mission.
Now here's the rub, both Bush and Olmert are under the gun for their failures in war and have limited support to make more.
Unfortunately both might like to redeem themselves with a hail mary tossing of Bombs to Iran.
God Help us. Those more conservative folks who don't want to be associated with the unjustified war and death we contemplate and presidential facism owe it to themselves to make impeachment a reality. The Dems can't do it alone.
If Iran is nuked, the ones to blame are the ones who enabled the Bush war machine instead of making a stand
Peace
Karl
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dirtbag
climber
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May 18, 2007 - 03:28pm PT
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But Doug...
If only we could go over and impose democracy on them, they'd like us so much better. They'd greet us as liberators.
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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May 18, 2007 - 05:09pm PT
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dirt dirt dirt, my man, what are you thinking?
rational and thoughtful consideration of our own history?
WTF- what about natalie holloway? did you know paris is going to jail? and the playoffs are on!
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dirtbag
climber
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May 18, 2007 - 05:17pm PT
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I know Matt. And surprise-surprise, his candidacy is going nowhere. His reward for his thoughtfulness is that he's getting gang-banged and ridiculed by right wingers.
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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May 18, 2007 - 05:31pm PT
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he looks like he belongs in B horror flicks, and word on the left side of the street is that he's long been pretty openly racist (never heard of him myself), but i hope they keep in around for a few more debates, if just for the entertainment value.
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dirtbag
climber
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May 18, 2007 - 05:34pm PT
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That wouldn't surprise me. The only thing I know about him is that he hasn't towed the party line about Iraq.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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May 18, 2007 - 05:42pm PT
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"Karl,
Can you elaborate upon your Lebanon/Iran analysis. I blelieve that Hexbollan kidnapped two Israeli soldiers and that preipated the larger conflict. Sheik Nazrallah has admitted that he did not expect the level of response.
Jody's evil twin."
You and I both know that the invasion of Lebanon was planned long in advance and that they were just looking for a reason to go in there. All out of proportion with the crime I might add. War criminals used cluster bombs in civilians areas and kids are still dying from it. What ever happened to those two soildiers?
They hoped to suck Syria and Iran into it but they didn't bite and Israel kinda floundered, thus making Olmert weak in Israeli eyes.
Peace
Karl
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monolith
Trad climber
Albany,CA
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May 18, 2007 - 05:43pm PT
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While I don't agree with Ron Paul that they attacked us because we had been bombing Iraq for 10 years (They probably cheered, Iraq was secular), that article does explain pretty well how we interfered in the middle east since the Eisenhower administration.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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May 18, 2007 - 05:44pm PT
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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May 18, 2007 - 06:38pm PT
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Fatty wrote "I have read nothing about Israel spoiling for a fight last year,"
What a joke. You should read your own posts. You've been naming time windows for conflicts for years. Do they come out of thin air or do they have to be provoked and justified. You yourself have predicted an Iran attack. Lebanon was just to light the fire
peace
Karl
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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May 18, 2007 - 06:43pm PT
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"There was a Republican presidential debate last night. The Republican candidates looked like the evil law firm in a John Grisham movie."
---David Letterman
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"While visiting troops in Iraq on Thursday, Vice President Dick Cheney told them that he knows they are suffering hardships from extended deployments, but the longer stays are vital to the mission. Then, still pointing his sidearm, he slowly backed into his plane and left."
---Amy Poehler
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"The elections are heating up. In a recent interview, John McCain said the last music he bought was The Beach Boys, while Mitt Romney said the last music he bought was Roy Orbison. Apparently, McCain and Romney are both running for president in 1964.'
---Conan O'Brien
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"The [Republican] debate on 'enhanced interrogation techniques' was a good start, but we can go further. Next time I say we put a suspected terrorist up on stage with the candidates and give them each 30 seconds to spill the beans. After all, you can say you're pro-torture, but actions scream louder than words!"
---Stephen Colbert
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"New Rule: You can't send the National Guard to Iraq and then claim it's still here. The helicopters, the Humvees, the men... Like Dorothy and Toto, they're not in Kansas anymore. Sorry, Mr. President, but the last documented case of a National Guardsman able to be in two places at one time...was you. "
---Bill Maher
that's all in honor of you fatguy, cause as we all know, you are kind of a big joke around here...
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