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slobmonster
Trad climber
berkeley, ca
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May 16, 2007 - 06:17pm PT
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k-man wrote:
"I have an old Chounard Ice Pick /hammer.
I was thinking of cutting off the pick to
make it lighter and less dangerous, but just
can't seem to bring myself around to do it."
Good, don't. With what you can sell this for on EBay you can buy three, four, or more hammers of your choice.
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deuce4
Big Wall climber
the Southwest
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May 16, 2007 - 06:55pm PT
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Message for Johnny B. I got a brand spanking new Hurricane drill with your name on it. I was saving it for my grandchildren, but maybe you can give it back when they need it. Send me your address.
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bachar
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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May 16, 2007 - 10:09pm PT
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Thanx Deuce! Is the Hurricane better than that Petzl thing?
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deuce4
Big Wall climber
the Southwest
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May 16, 2007 - 10:24pm PT
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Hi John-
Just sent you an email, then saw this. Regarding the Hurricane:
You can cut off part of the shank of SDS drills with the Hurricane, 'cuz you don't need the fluted thingies anyway, I personally like a shorter set up for drilling on lead.
I haven't tried the Petzl, but personally, I like a rigid connection between the holder and the drill, then let your grip allow for percussion technique. With the Petzl, the drill wobbles in the holder, which some have said they like, but it wouldn't be for me.
But hey, what do I know, I only drilled a 1000 or so bolts in my time. Though my record of drilling an 1 1/4" long 1/4 bolt in granite in 47 seconds (drilling hole and placing bolt) is probably still a record, especially now that no one drills 1/4" anymore.
Walt and Tucker route "Deucey's Elbow" was named after my drilling muscle on my right elbow, I was told. That muscle's no longer there, I'm afraid.
Cheers
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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May 16, 2007 - 10:32pm PT
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I bring a Petzl drill as my emergency bolt kit on El Cap. I haven't had to use it yet though. It's nice and light for an emergency kit.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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May 17, 2007 - 12:55am PT
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Deuce, I would suggest you try the Petzl RockPec. I had been using the Hurricane for over 10 years, but went to the RockPec because it did not require wrenches, which were a pain, especially if the drill bit loosened up while drilling.
More to the point, after two years of using the RockPec exclusively, I used the Hurricane one day when I had loaned out my RockPec. As my rebolting partner can attest, I was a very unhappy camper. Every vibration and shock from hitting the drill was transmitted straight to my hand and it seemed to me that the drill had a lot of kick back. It took me way longer to drill a hole with the Hurricane than with the RockPec which I verified when I came back a week later and drilled holes in the same piece of rock with the RockPec in about 2/3rd the time as the Hurricane.
Obviously, personal experiences and personal preferences vary, but I won't be using my Hurricane (which I used religously for over 10 years) anytime soon.
Bruce
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deuce4
Big Wall climber
the Southwest
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May 17, 2007 - 09:36am PT
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It sounds like a different style of drilling using a drill holder with the bit loose in the holder like the Petzl. Somehow, I doubt it would be faster in general, but it may be for some people. The SDS "loose" system is designed for smashing rock at 1000 blows per minute, and proper hand drilling is really cutting rock at 60 hits per minute, so personally I like the percise control of rotation per hit that comes with a fixed holder. Of course, good drilling takes a loose hand when hitting for proper percussion.
I drilled probably 70 holes with my Hurricane in Zion and never once did the bit loosen.
But I should try the new "loose bit" system to truly compare.
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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May 17, 2007 - 12:25pm PT
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I've used both the Petzl Rokpec in Zion, and a standard Rawl w/ holder. Both with 3/8" drill bits.
My Rawl is MUCH faster.
That said, I notice when I drill with a sharpened SDS bit (steepen the angle a bit) that it drills faster in sandstone. Over heating during the sharpening process will ruin the insert though. Keep 'er cool.
Greg, I think either Dewalt or Bosch is still making the SDS bits with the non wavy tip? I've got a gob of them (discount warehouse, 2 bucks per, I think I snagged 60 or 70 of them!). Do go through a few every season, though...
One thing I did for an emergency drilling rig in Zion with the Rokpec was to cut a worn out drill bit down and sharpen the end to a chisel point. The flange on the back end is a bit large for hard rock, but, in soft sandstone, it works kinda ok (does bind a bit). The soft metal (cutting off the insert in an SDS bits leaves you with just the shaft metal) wears very quickly, but, in the soft rock in some of Zion, you can get several holes done fairly quickly and the short length of the drill bit, in combo with the short handle, make for a real nice small and lightweight package to carry.
Only short drills (4") I've found to buy are the expensive Hilti 10mm rigs. Nice to have, though.
I'd get a hurricane drill though, if I could find one. Being able to lock in any drill bit would be nice. I think for hand drilling, the non SDS bits drill faster as the tips are typically sharper. SDS bits are pretty dull out the chute. I guess they don't need to be sharp when using a power drill and drilling in concrete.
Cheers,
-Brian in SLC
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deuce4
Big Wall climber
the Southwest
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May 17, 2007 - 12:44pm PT
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Here's some example of drill tips I like:
From left to right: a SDS bit ground to pure chisel tip. This one has drilled probably 100 holes without ever having been re-sharpened (albeit in Sandstone and Limestone).
Next, is an old Rawl #20 bit (note that the taper shank actually still fits perfectly and nicely in the Hurricane Holder), ground to chisel tip.
Far right: SDS bit drilled with "modified pointed chisel tip". Nice for harder rock.
Note also in the first photo how the end of the SDS shanks are cut off to make for shorter drills.
"Cut rock, don't smash"
cheers
ps here's a link to an old drilling article (published in Climbing in 1988), which still has bits of pertinent info (no pun intended): http://www.bigwalls.net/climb/bolts.pdf
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deuce4
Big Wall climber
the Southwest
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May 17, 2007 - 01:00pm PT
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Speaking of bolts, here's some old pics of tests we did in Yosemite back in the 80's just behind the cache:
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feelio Babar
Trad climber
Sneaking up behind you...
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May 17, 2007 - 01:06pm PT
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Cool photos John!
I love my HMW drill...thing has never failed me, drilled tons of holes, and keeps on going.
Thanks JM!
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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May 17, 2007 - 02:05pm PT
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Nice photo's of the bits!
One thing I've noticed, is that if you have a pretty dull SDS bit, from wear and tear, and resharpen, the bit tends to be on the small side which can, in hard rock, make setting especially powerbolts no bueno. Cone gets over schmushed. Powerbolts seem to be more finicky on the drill size. I measure mine after especially any heavy use and retire when under a certain size (.390, I seem to recall).
Cheers,
-Brian in SLC
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N0_ONE
Social climber
Utah
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May 18, 2007 - 09:40pm PT
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I have a pika drill that has worked great in the sandstone on the Colorado Platue, but the allen wrench bolts are alittle annoying and using the allen key once you've duct taped it to the cable sucks. Pete Takeda brought his Petzl drill along on a project yesterday and I drilled two holes with it. I'm switching.
The pinching is a little annoying but I have pretty small hands so no big deal. I did think it drilled faster and eaiser, although I haven't timed it. It seems that the action of the petzl helps to free the bit after every strike of the hammer, and once the hole was started I could hold the grip with just my finger tips and slowley spin the thing as it sunk in the rock. Another reason I'm convinced it drills faster is that I over drilled both holes because it was so easy.
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bachar
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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May 18, 2007 - 10:55pm PT
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Good pix Deucy....Yeah the Rawl #20 bit is the one I used forever to drill the 3/8" Taper Bolts in Tuolumne. Worked pretty well I thought - must have drilled well over 50.
Was that a true 3/8" bit or slightly smaller diameter?
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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May 22, 2007 - 02:28pm PT
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Is that Ted, the Unabomber in that last pic, Deuce?
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euro-brief-guy
climber
mountain view, ca
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May 22, 2007 - 02:50pm PT
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Say deuce, anybody ever tell you that you bear a strong resemblance to KD Lang?
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deuce4
Big Wall climber
the Southwest
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May 22, 2007 - 03:13pm PT
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Actually, I *am* KD Lang, but the frequent sex changes are taking a toll on me.
The guy in the picture is Hal, a freind of John Dill's. Quite an intelligent guy, not sure if he put his efforts into fertilizer or not, but I don't think so.
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NoRushNoMore
climber
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May 22, 2007 - 04:25pm PT
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Another option for a hammer, worked well for me for the past 3 years:
Camp Brenta Hammer (mec.ca has them for about $50)
Hilti has a fancy cross pattern tip bit with double fluting and solid carbite head, rather pricy but drills almost twice as fast and last about 3x the normal bit
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