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TradIsGood
Happy and Healthy climber
the Gunks end of the country
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May 15, 2007 - 03:50pm PT
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Perhaps the industry needs an independent testing organization like Consumer's Reports. (FISH Reports?)
Funded by climbers and maybe insurance companies? Charge manufacturers for certification of test results on randomly purchased inventories from retailers and wholesalers?
9% failure rate! Even though this batch might not have been random, and it is small, it is scary.
Russ, how many others have you tested besides this batch? Have you tested a significant amount of gear from other manufacturers?
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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May 15, 2007 - 03:59pm PT
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As the proud owner of many sets of the units that were manufactured during the time of the recall and prior to the supposed institution of pull-testing on each unit, I'd be curious to know how often CCH's test detects a dud...as these were all making it into the supply when I got mine.
I haven't sent mine back to them for pull testing b/c they've pretty much lost my trust there...Fox, would you please guard these-here chickens for me? Time to find a heavy friend and start bouncing!
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TradIsGood
Happy and Healthy climber
the Gunks end of the country
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May 15, 2007 - 04:09pm PT
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I own 1 each from black (almost never used) through purple. All from '02 except the orange which was within a month or so of the recall time (outside).
None ever tested by a fall, but often use half of them on any given pitch. Sure they look good, ...
How much would we pay?
If Russ isn't interested, maybe jstan?
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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May 15, 2007 - 04:12pm PT
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Russ your #1 head test is clever marketing but I don't think that a real life application would hold up. My limited understanding is that 2 biners, for instance, doesn't actually hold double the weight of 1. 6 #1 heads bundled together won't necessarily hold 6 times the 800 lbs of force of 1. Ed or someone could probably be more specific.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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May 15, 2007 - 04:16pm PT
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f*#k aliens
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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May 15, 2007 - 04:18pm PT
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Damned right Jaybro.
Aliens have been molesting our redneck women in the back country with impunity for years!!!
It's about time they spread the other cheek.
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Moof
Trad climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon
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May 15, 2007 - 04:24pm PT
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I've only done a handful of brazed joints, probably 4 or 5 in my life (though tons of assorted soldering, which barely relates). What surprises me is that there isn't a pair of small vent holes at the far end. For the couple brazed joint of this general style the female part had a pair of vent holes in the far end. The guy instructing me had me heat up by the junction and feed into the small hole until I got a good fillet up by the junction. The small hole on the far side was also inspected to assure proper flow across. In this way there was little chance of a captive air bubble, or not using enough material without knowing it.
Aliens don't have these vent holes. Why not?
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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Topic Author's Reply - May 15, 2007 - 04:33pm PT
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HDDJ: I have no idea what you are on about.
If a loop breaks at 800lbs, then a loop breaks at 800lbs. If you attach this loop to something that is stronger than 800lbs, the loop will break before the object it is attached to. If the object breaks and the loop is intact, then the object has broken at less than 800lbs. That's what I'm saying.....
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Cloudraker
Big Wall climber
BC
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May 15, 2007 - 04:34pm PT
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I had all my aliens tensile tested by CCH last fall but am curious about their testing methods. By what's posted on the CCH website it sounds like they're just testing the cable, not the unit as a whole....
From http://www.aliencamsbycch.com/alien_news.html:
"Since January 2006 every main cable is tensile tested using an Omega electronic strain gauge to measure the load. The .33 through 1" main cables are tested to 1750 lbs and the 1.25 through 2.5 are tested to 2400 lbs. After testing they are stamped on the cable eye to indicate the test was made. Ultimate strength of a 3/4 Alien is over 2700 lbs."
WTF?? How valid is a test that measures the strength of a cable if the problems are related to where the cable attaches to the socket base?
Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong about this.
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BoKu
Trad climber
Douglas Flat, CA
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May 15, 2007 - 04:38pm PT
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> Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong about this.
What they're testing is the main cable _assembly_, consisting of the main cable with the bulb brazed on.
The way they do this test is to cut enough cable for two stems, braze bulbs on each end, and then do tensile testing between the two bulbs. Then they cut the cable, assemble the two cam units, and swage the thumb loop. I don't know if they test the assembled cam.
Bob "BoKu" K.
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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May 15, 2007 - 04:42pm PT
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fish- how much for a dozen loops sent to the bay area?
(am i gathering correctly that you'd supply these?)
and what would you suggest for a funkness to generate ~900 or 1000 lbs?
gracias in advance
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Cloudraker
Big Wall climber
BC
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May 15, 2007 - 04:42pm PT
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Thanks for the clarification Boku
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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Topic Author's Reply - May 15, 2007 - 04:46pm PT
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hypothetical Matt.... the method will work, but it's not like I've tested it or have them to sell. I'll see if I can come up with a good method that I can send out to the average punter... no guarantee you'll live, but it might make things a bit safer. Voter registration cards will dictate price ;)
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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May 15, 2007 - 04:49pm PT
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i'll be sure to have one of the 4 republicans in berkeley order them onmy behalf, fo the 'braindead discount'...
=)
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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May 15, 2007 - 04:50pm PT
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Melissa - I think you should assume that 100% of cams made in that date range will fail. Funkness testing will not tell you anything. Stop scaring us and go exchange your cams.
There's a lot wrong with the joint in Russ's pix. It looks like it was brazed by a moron, or someone on their first day of the job, or both. Scary.
Ragarding another post, a good welder should be able to tell when the joint is full of braze material - it overflows a bit. The joint in Russ's picture is clearly "cold", however, so this wouldn't apply.
Brazing - not a good process for high volume production. You can see Black Diamond doesn't do it, for example. Too reliant on techinique, difficult to impossible to control to the process in any meaningful way, and difficult to inspect.
It would be nice to see CCH go to a joint similar to what you see on the Camalot C3's. Seems it would require minimal change to their existing design and processes.
JLP
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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Topic Author's Reply - May 15, 2007 - 04:58pm PT
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Funkness testing will not tell you anything.
explain please
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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May 15, 2007 - 05:30pm PT
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Russ - there's no quantitative result for a funkness, no repeatability, really little to no control at all. For example, a circlehead might hold 2000 lbs for several milliseconds, but break at 1000 lbs on a continuous pull tester. Have you just tested your Alien to 2k or 1k? I don't know. Pull testing is not just a machine that breaks things, its a well known and documented test process that repeats the same test processes used on the individual materials and componants from other manufacturers.
But - I'd be curious to see the results of someone putting a gage on a "funkness test process" and see what comes up. However, my training and experience tells me the results will be all over the place, and the numbers meaningless since we can't compare them to anything other than other funkness tests.
Let me know your thoughts.
JLP
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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Topic Author's Reply - May 15, 2007 - 05:40pm PT
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JLP: True, an inexperienced funktester will have results all over the place. But, rather than a 105lb girl bounce testing her Aliens (little to no good) a 105lb girl funking her Aliens will have some merit. An experienced funkateer (is that a word?) can narrow the range and that is why funk testing is used on lead to test heads and whatnot. The range can be fairly narrow on a repeatable basis in the right hands.
What I would like to get across is that if you put a loop in the system that breaks at a known amount,and THEN funk the Alien or whatever until this loops breaks you will have a pretty good and narrow range of usability. It will certainly tell you whether the head of your Alien is still on the shaft or not and that it at least got a load of say 1200lbs. YMMV.
Got to be better than just counting "head wounds" at the end of each week, wouldn't you say?
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creetur
climber
CA
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May 15, 2007 - 05:46pm PT
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could someone just break it down for a girl?
i was planning on going out and breaking the bank on a set of aliens to round out my emergent rack but all of this business is making me think more than twice.
i learned on aliens, led on them, fell on them, whimpered over them while jamming them into little cracks, and now i feel like i'm learning that momma's out of love.
is there a general consensus on aliens? are C3s better?
k
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