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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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I agree with Karl, but Pete has a good point too...
It's like picking the less of two evils I guess...abandoned poop tubes are a terrible and shamefull thing, anytime I see one I am almosty ashamed to be a part of a group that could be so negligant toward our beautiful resource (El Cap). However, I definately wouldn't want to see tons of new fire rings all over the place either.
Perhaps Pete uses the same ring everytime, and it is well established, but you get a bunch of yahoos who don't really care one way or another burning their crap and I'm sure it would become a problem.
Not to mention that I'm pretty sure it is illegal...and I'm pretty sure a fire that got out of control would definately get the Parck Services attention.
Either way, people need to take resonsibility for their own sh#t and not leave it for others to see/deal with. I'll never forget my first trip up El Cap, we pulled up to Camp 6 starving and ou8t of food. Decided to investigate a white bucket that looked like a food bucket...turns out it wasn't.
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David
Trad climber
San Rafael, CA
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I wish someone had burned the sh#t that I stepped in on top of ElCap instead of just dumping it wherever they felt like it!!! Then again, I agree with Karl that having everyone burn sh#t bags is not a viable long term solution.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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This is a good thing to think about. Is it viable, or not? I always build a campfire on the summit in an existing fire pit. To me, it is not a big deal to burn a few paper bags. Wall Flowers are tremendously easy to manage.
Now when I answered Karl's rebuttal, I was only looking to the summit. But there is somewhere else you need to look when considering the problem of human waste on a big wall, and that is at the wall's base.
Take a walk along the base of El Cap sometime, and tell me how many sh|t bags you find. Five? Ten? Twenty? Some people just chuck the damn things off without any concern whatsoever! And I'm not talking about in the 1970's or 80's - I'm talking about the New Millennium! There are plenty of folks who believe this is acceptable behaviour!
Actually, this is probably what Dr. Piton calls "situational ethics", whereby the perpetrators probably agree that chucking sh|t bags off a big wall is not cool, however in their situation it is.....
I have yet to speak to one person who admits to doing this, but believe me, mates - there are tons who do! In fact, I bloody guarantee you there are people reading this post right now who have chucked bags off! They'll just never tell you.
I *routinely* carry a garbage bag and gloves up to the base when I am schlepping loads, and on the way down, I'll pick up discarded sh|t bags, empty cans, paper, and whatever amounts of garbage I find, which is always PLENTY. Have you ever wondered what happens to this garbage? [Like, "Hi," eh?] I find having to do this extremely annoying, but it appeals to my philanthropic side. Karl might say it's good karma!
It's well and fine to say that poop tubes or PVC bags or whatever are the Better Way, and they are, when their contents are properly disposed of! But the contents are NOT properly disposed of, and to tell you the truth, I am sick and tired of other people's sh|t all over the base, summit and ledges of El Cap!
If you are unwilling to carry your crap down, then consider the comprimise of burning it on the summit!
Grrrrr........
[/rant]
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dufas
Trad climber
san francisco
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kudos to Pete and Karl, both great points. Throwing sh#t bags off to land at the base is inexcusable. Unfortunately, it highlights the difference between someone who has a sustainable attitude about the environment/resource and someone who is a climber. While often embodied in the same person, it seems just as often they are separate. It does make one ashamed to see what some other climbers are capable of in terms of trashing places.
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Melissa
Big Wall climber
oakland, ca
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"If you are unwilling to carry your crap down, then consider the comprimise of burning it on the summit!"
How 'bout this...If you are unwilling to carry your crap down, go big in the morning and climb in a push or stay off of routes where crapping may need to occur.
I have carried out an abandoned poop tube before, but there's not much that I can do to fix things if someone's wall flower splatters all over or they don't know how to manage a campfire on the summit.
I think that most people looking for advice on how to pack out their poo are more likely to be on less steep routes like the SF of the Column where the wall flower is totally inappropriate.
[rant]I've found crap on routes TWICE in the last month and these were free climbs. Assuming that emergencies will sometimes happen, at least fling your crap off the ledge when you are done so I don't have to. (Or better yet, lower to an off route place and go there.) [/rant]
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Maybe I'm just bias or a bit synical...but I have to make a big broad generalization here and it may piss some folks off...
Is it just me or does anyone agree that most of the people who toss shitbags Euro's?
Had an experince where a German(perhaps, some slavic language) party left a nice present for us tied to the anchor under the roof of the shield...WTF is up with that???? It wasn't like we were rushing them or anything...they were well above us. grrr...vent.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Another thought...
Is it just me, or is does anyone else find sitting around a pile of burning sh#t NOT very appealing?
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Rhodo-Router
Trad climber
Otto, NC
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My s'more tastes funny...
Euros have an enlightened attitude about their waste. They enlighten themselves of the burden, and you find it later.
M: ask J about the ziplocked gift at the Block...
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Hey Pete...ever hear that saying:
"Everyone likes the smell of their own sh#t?"
Is that why you've soloed so many El Cap Routes?
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Josh Higgins
Trad climber
San Diego
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I use the Metolius Waste Case. It works well for me!
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coylec
Trad climber
Columbia, SC
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My only experience with "solid waste disposal" has been to use PTPP's wall-flowers. And, yes, there is something "magical" about the smell of burning feces.
A couple of notes:
1. You must burn, burn and burn some more to completely destory your waste.
2. It will take time, as you must both completely eliminate your waste and then extinguish your fire and properly dispose of the ashes.
3. Pete said it, I'll repeat it: USE EXISTING RINGS. Campfires cause a lasting impact on the backcountry. Using only small sticks from the ground (small means stuff you can break with your hands EASILY ...) and making a small fire, you can dispose of your flowers.
4. Once you have burned it all to ASH ... you must scatter the cool ashes. This will take time.
see http://www.lnt.org/TeachingLNT/LNTEnglish.php for more information.
Next wall, I do believe I'm going to try using a PVC bomb. Don't knock it til you've tried it, that's my opinion. Besides, what works for one person may not work for another.
WARNING: BWT - Here's a thought: typically, one disposes of human waste by creating a cat hole and burying it. During Chad and I's time, we created a small bouquet of flowers, yet it would not be unreasonable to have disposed of the feces in 2 or 3 catholes. Does anyone have any thoughts on this? Storing said feces in some sort of container and burying said waste in properly done cat holes seems like a good idea ... does anyone know anything about this?
coylec
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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"Storing said feces in some sort of container and burying said waste in properly done cat holes seems like a good idea ..."
NO!
"typically, one disposes of human waste by creating a cat hole and burying it."
This is not true. In most high traffic climbing areas (Mt Rainier, Mt Shasta, Tetons, etc, it is required to pack your sh#t out! There are too many of us to start burying our sh#t on top of El Cap.
Get a Waste Case, much lighter then PVC.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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I will be the first to agree that, if you are going to do something crappy out of desparation, do the lesser of the evils. Leaving a PVC tube on the summit or the descent one of the worst abominations, Tossing bags is bad but only half as bad if you spend a few HOURS cleaning up the whole base of the Stone when you return. Saying you will and then not doing it is worse than just being a lowlife and tossing bags.
IF you are lazy about PVC, then use a river bag, the crap doesn't really weigh that much.
Still, I'm with Melissa, I'm afraid that publicizing this wallflower crap is going to influence the South Face of the Column/ Leaning Tower crowd. There is no fire pit on the top of the tower. The Column is too low angle for these antics, and many folks don't stay and bivy after their wall, particularly grade 5s.
Pete has posted on the net about flying his haul bag off EL Cap (not by accident) and suggesting folks drag paper bags full of crap up their walls when only 25% percent of the walls in Yosemite would "Maybe" be suited for such a thing, and only if only a few folks did it. A small minority of climbers have fires on top of El Cap, if everybody did it, there wouldn't be any wood up there, particularly near the fire pits, and how would everybody fire up the damp ones from that morning?
Some tricks are better kept to yourself
Peace
Karl
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tradman
Trad climber
australia
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 9, 2004 - 07:13am PT
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Thanks to all for the great info. Will be heading over to Yosemite from abroad during September. Is the `Metolius waste can` readily available from suppliers in the Valley or San Fran?? What is the cost in US dollars??
Thanks
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Rhodo-Router
Trad climber
Otto, NC
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From the Metolius website:
That funny orange tube with the plastic bags was officially named the “Waste Case.” A competition was held at the semi-annual Outdoor Retailer Show in Salt Lake City this last summer. Out of the many entries received, the “Waste Case," brainchild of Mary Karabin, was the final choice. Other entries included:
The Crapsule
Orange Poop-sickle
Number 2 Bag
Coiler Can
Sooper Pooper
Safe Deposit Box
The Vault
Stool Tool
The Babysitter
The Dumpster
Crap Chute (followed by an enthusiastic "Yes")
The Log Jam
The Honey Bucket
Jim's Sack (courtesy of JD LeBlanc)
Devil's Tower
#2 Friend (a good one)
South Chute
Sharma's Last Move(ment)
Crowning Glory
Snake Charmer
Lil' Squirt
El Pupero Chico (translated: The Little Shitter)
Flarecan
The Daily Duffel
El Paculator
Wise Acre
Lunch Bag (sick)
El Crapitan
El Crapican
Toilenator
Orange John (we add Coke here)
Potty Shack
Business Bucket
Metopig
Agent Orange
Tube of Doom
The Drop Zone
The Hump T Dump T
Tall Boy
Master Cylinder
The Grand Poo Bah
The Wall Throne
Smart Ass
The Daily Exposure (outstanding)
Mud Falcon Retention System
Sphincter Cone
Dung Duffel
Hershey Haul Bag
B.D. Crapalot
The Loo
The Ranger's Lunch Bag
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coylec
Trad climber
Columbia, SC
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Lambone's right about the traffic thing. I'm brain dead.
coylec
ps - at least i warned ya it was bwt.
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Melissa
Big Wall climber
oakland, ca
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El Crapitan is my favorite...Maybe they can use that one for their deluxe 3-man version? Thanks for the potty humor!
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Mike!
Trad climber
Idaho USA
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A boater's DRY BAG works fine. You can roll it up and toss it in your haul bag. It doesn't smell.
The buisness:
Paper bag with the edges roled down (medium, grocery) gets the deposit - tiolet paper goes in - I sprinkle in some cat box deoterizor - then tripple bag the whole thing in old plastic bags.
Baby wipes - hand sanitizor - and nobody wiggles the ledge while pants are down.
If you wanna burn this stuff, just open the DRY bag at the fire ring. Carry down the plastic bags. Wash your hands befor you eat.
have a nice day.
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Mike Hartley
climber
Colorado Springs
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Though a bio-degradable system like the waste case seems to be the way to go I've also used this. A 2 gal plastic bucket with a lid from your local hardware store makes a great groover/shitter. Line it with a heavy plastic bag, spread open a paper bag (preassembled with bleach/kitty litter) sitting in the bucket, do your thing, and then seal it up. Doesn't weigh anything, gives you a well defined target while you are riding the bucking bronc called your ledge, is cheap, lightweight, durable, etc.
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Wade Icey
climber
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I've heard there are bathrooms with no walls but, you mean, like, there are walls.....with no bathroom?
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