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Crimpergirl
Social climber
Hell on earth wondering what I did to deserve it
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Apr 16, 2007 - 09:37pm PT
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TIG, Not true. Attempted, threatened and completed violent victimization is recorded. In addition, whether the victim used a weapon, or resisted in some fashion IS in the data. Well at least for the ones that survived (completed homicide data don't include this).
**edited a couple of times for clarity
http://ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/cvus/current/cv0572.pdf
This can be broken down by specific forms of resistance as well. I'm not gonna do it right now though. Maybe when the semester is over, I can run the numbers for you. Keep in mind that when someone resists (and resisting can be anything from screaming, running away to pulling a weapon, hitting the offender, etc), it can make them dead. And these data do not include homicide (we interview victims and dead ones don't talk).
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Burns
Trad climber
Nowhere special
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Apr 16, 2007 - 09:59pm PT
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Keep in mind also that Blacksburg Virginia is, aside from the very large university there, a sleepy little one-horse town in rural southwestern Virginia. Having lived for many years in Virginia and attended the University of Virginia (I very nearly went to VT) I can assure you that towns like Blacksburg are not set up to deal with this kind of event. Nobody really is, but unlike LA or DC or NY, there's not a rapid-reaction swat-style force that is on call. Even if there had been, I doubt the outcome would have been much different. The sad truth is, this could happen tomorrow anywhere else in the country. It is the price we sometimes have to pay to live in a country that allows us so many freedoms. Short of a police state or a vigilante state, there's not much you can do.
Blacksburg is the kind of town where people feel safe walking down the street. If everyone is suddenly armed I doubt that feeling will remain. My college town is still a utopia in my mind, as I suspect many people's college towns are. I'll always look back at it with happy and pleasant memories. I have many friends who are alumni and one who is a current grad student. It makes me sad that such a horrible thing has happened in their utopia. I hope that the pain will fade and the happiness and carelessness of youth will return to Blacksburg soon.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Apr 16, 2007 - 10:05pm PT
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TGT mentioned armed vets on campus. As a Vietnam vet I can assure you the one thing I definitely want to see happen for sure is Iraq vets being disarmed when they get home. Statistically, they're the last group of people on earth we would want walking around campus or our community armed given the number of issues many of them have to work through on their return. Some of them will be time bombs for years; sadly it's usually themselves, their wives, and family that suffer when such folks snap. There has been a steady stream of spousal murders and murder suicides on and around army bases since the war began.
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mdavid
Big Wall climber
CA, CO, TX
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Apr 16, 2007 - 10:14pm PT
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heal, your comment about disarming iraq war veterans is offensive and unbelievably uninformed.
Returning vets deserve much more respect than you.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 16, 2007 - 10:17pm PT
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dmalloy,
read more carefully. Here in Utah a CCW is valid on campus, but.....you'd never know because the weapon is concealed.
This assumption that people who carry are potential hot-heads just doesn't jibe with the numbers, but Crimpie if you don't think you can control yourself then I compliment you on your exercising the option NOT to obtain one out of your ethical consideration.
However to assume that just because some of your fellow profs have slapfests (and I certainly hope you're some bringing video of them this weekend lol) that none of them should be trusted with anything more than a red pen constitutes some pretty illogical thought coming from one of your ilk.
Burns, or should I say Mr. Knowitall, if they are not old enough to buy alcohol they are not old enough to qualify for a CCW.
ANYWHERE.
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Burns
Trad climber
Nowhere special
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Apr 16, 2007 - 10:28pm PT
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Ron- Sorry if I was misinformed about the CCW age. What then is the legal age to purchase a firearm (specifically a handgun?) The class was apparently a german class with a large number of students in it, which indicates that it was probably an undergrad-level class. Odds are that most of them would be too young for a CCW then anyway. I guess it only takes one...
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wiclimber
Trad climber
devil's lake, wi
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Apr 16, 2007 - 10:31pm PT
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I believe a campus would be safer with CCW. The numbers tell the story that emotion can not.
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Crimpergirl
Social climber
Hell on earth wondering what I did to deserve it
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Apr 16, 2007 - 10:42pm PT
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Hey Ron, you think I'm illogical? Nice to know your thoughts.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 16, 2007 - 10:50pm PT
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I've seen some profs act like little girls, ergo no prof can be entrusted with lethal force???????
But maybe Crowley can shed some light on the topic as always with an astute kernal of wisdom.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Apr 16, 2007 - 11:03pm PT
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mdavid, I know exactly what I'm talking about and there is not a single element of misinformation whatsoever in my statement above - none. Exactly which part of it did you not get or are disputing? And on exactly what basis are you attempting to dispute it?
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
one pass away from the big ditch
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Apr 16, 2007 - 11:05pm PT
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the dumb ones that shouldn't own a gun only need to be smart enough to know I have a gun and will use it for the logic of deterrence to work.
beyond that minimal level of intelligence, yes, we should ban all guns.
Basically if they are that dumb, then I can probably out draw them. Either that or they are on PCP, which a gun, a knife, a stick, all make good weapons. A gun is not dispositive.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 16, 2007 - 11:06pm PT
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Actually Joe, while I believe you are right about the incidents, your thinking is along the lines of dealing with the symptom rather than the root cause.
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maldaly
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Apr 16, 2007 - 11:07pm PT
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This whole thing makes me so sad. I love it that we live in a nation where we trust each other so much that we let ourselves own guns. I guess that's a good thing. I've owned guns and had lots of fun with them. Nothing like the feel of pulling a 12 gauge into your shoulder and blasting a clay pigeon out of the sky. I don't own any guns any more and today's massacre makes me glad I don't. Today's massacre makes me wonder a bit if this great experiment in personal and corporate freedom we call the USA, hasn't failed somehow. Can it simply be a coincidence that the nation with the highest percentage of personal gun ownership also has the highest incidence (crimpie, check me on this) of gun deaths? Haven't gun deaths in the US reached the point where we should treat the as a public health issue? Why are we more freaked out about Asian Bird Flu than gun deaths in the US? Why am I worried that if I forget to signal a lane change that I might piss off the guy behind me and get shot? (That actually happened here a few months ago.) Why do we own this government that we're so scared of that we feel we need to have the right to bear arms in order to protect ourselves from them? What's up with that? Where does this fear come from?
Sorry for the brain dump. I'm just confused... My thoughts go out to all the dead and injured and all their families and friends. I'm going to go eat a fudgecicle and watch the end of Godzilla.
Mal
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Apr 16, 2007 - 11:15pm PT
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Yup, the world will never be 100% safe.
I went to the university of Wyoming, too many of my classmates wouldn't think of going otdoors, let alone to class, without at least one gun.
I wonder what would have happened had this transpired in big wonderful? I do remember one of my fellow scholars (I even climbed with him) having his reality cut short one night by a shotgun to the gut when he was navigating the collegete world of sex and booze (and estranged ex-boyfriends) that someone mentioned upthread. Hard to think he might not have fared better if there wasn't a major gun in most every handy pick'em up truck.
I can see the value of Ron's armed & Competent teacher though. But what skills do you choose when staffing? Does marskmanship count higher than academic acumen?
What if you can't find say, an art appreciation instructor who can put a round between the Guernica horse's eyes? Teach etch a sketch?
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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Apr 16, 2007 - 11:15pm PT
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I don't know if it is a "failed" experiment.
Just today, three hundred million Americans DID NOT walk into the Local University and shoot up the place.
Dude in Virginia is an anamoly, not a represenitive.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Apr 16, 2007 - 11:17pm PT
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Mdavid,
Healje or crawlers answers deserve no response.
The ignorance is self evident.
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Ouch!
climber
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Apr 16, 2007 - 11:22pm PT
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" Of course, I also had a badge"
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Mimi
climber
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Apr 16, 2007 - 11:26pm PT
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What Ron said. And wow, Malcolm, well said.
Unless each building has metal detectors and attendants, a school can't screen for armed individuals. It doesn't matter whether you have a CCW or not. It's the honor system. Another cost of freedom for those of you who want to repeal the 2nd Amendment. When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns. That is a reality.
I'm sure most universities prohibit firearms anywhere on campus. And yes, you can bet many of the victims wished they'd been carrying the pistol they left in their car or home. I know I would have been kicking myself the whole time. But in this country most of us don't feel compelled to have to carry a weapon routinely and especially in an urban public place.
What I hope won't happen is a huge kneejerk reaction that will only result in large increases in annual tuition to pay for excessive security measures.
Thoughts go out to the families and friends.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Salt Lake
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Apr 16, 2007 - 11:26pm PT
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This is a little off topic. The news is saying the perpetrator in Virginia was a Chinese national. Is it legal for non-citizens to buy guns in the U.S.?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 16, 2007 - 11:27pm PT
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Before you ask for numbers Mal, remember that statistics are always manipulated.
The true odds of this scenario are astronomical and the number of times guns are responsibly used as an effective deterent to crime are vastly unrecorded.
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