Please Comment On Arches Climbing Management Plan

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Tomcat

Trad climber

Chatham N.H.

Mar 31, 2007 - 09:20am PT

Moosie,I don't,to my knowledge,climb with anyone who litters.I do,at times climb with people who,for example,v-thread more than necessary.That's an ice climbing thing,though I guess you could v-thread in that Entrada.

I'm not endorsing the idea of staying out of Arches per se,but I think maybe you should keep an open mind about what I posted.There is a vast wealth of rock around Arches,and I don't think there are that many three star routes in Arches proper.What are there,right there,are the other user groups that might see chalk and slings and tape up close...and not like it.Making the wrong impression on those people might end up getting us banned from say Canyonlands,which would be a disaster.

At the creek all the stuff I mention is there,the dogs,dog crap,bumwad,tape,butts,not sticking to the trails,chalk, slings.I don't think it came from green jello eaters.

Somebody give me another sport that is allowed,pretty much without restriction nationwide,to leave brightly colored slings or the visible equivilent behind?Or gets to smear vastly different colored substance on natural resources just for their amusement,in national parks and forests.

Again,if this was the only cliff in the area,it would make more sense to me to fight to keep our right to climb there.But maybe,just maybe,for once,we should respect the other user groups.

piquaclimber

Trad climber

Durango

Mar 31, 2007 - 10:06am PT

Tomcat,

I think if you had actually climbed in Arches you might have a different opinion. It's about as far from Indian Creek in terms of use and abuse as two areas in southeast Utah could be.

It's easy to sit at a desk 1500 miles away and reason that it's a good call to sacrifice one area for the sake of another area. This is especially true when you haven't climbed in the area you are thinking of sacrificing. (Lake Powell vs. Echo Park comes to mind)

By the way, there is a hope that this dialogue with the NPS will lead to more open access in Canyonlands and perhaps the other parks on the Colorado Plateau. (Currently there are no new fixed anchors or hammers allowed in Canyonlands) If you're interested, you can find threads about how we got to this point here and on mountainproject.com. It wasn't easy and quite a few people have devoted a lot of time to the effort.

Brad

vaquero

Trad climber

Argentina

Mar 31, 2007 - 10:16am PT

I'll send a letter as well. Thanks for making me aware. Are the local climbers willing to build trails or do some other noticeable type of work for the Park Service in return for the PRIVELAGE of climbing? As a former cattle rancher I found that was usually a way to work with Government agencies. It might be worth a try. Good luck.

piquaclimber

Trad climber

Durango

Mar 31, 2007 - 10:42am PT

vaquero,

The Arches Task Force was formed this past year to address climber related issues. In conjunction with the Access Fund and the ASCA the ATF has been working with the NPS to replace or move anchors that have been identified as having visual impact.

It's a step towards rebuilding the good relations that climbers shared with the Arches NPS before last year.

Brad

Todd Gordon

Trad climber

Joshua Tree, Cal

Mar 31, 2007 - 10:43am PT

I am glad there are local climbers like Sam Lightner and Brad who DO climb often in Arches and DO know what is happening there TODAY;.....THESE are the people to listen to. Our Government cannot be trusted to make policies in the best interest of climbers, and blaming Dean's "stunt" (Which I'm sure if he could do it all over, he would NOT..) on our government's lame policies towards climbers is wrong;....if it wasn't Dean, believe me, they would find someone else. (Remember, it wasn't Dean who got the no fixed anchors ban in Canyonlands.....it was probably guys like you and I with our nail ups.) Also remember that some of yesterday's nail ups, are now clean (or even free cllimbs!) because of pin scars;...the sandstone scars easy, and yeah, it doesn't take too many pin placements to make a TCU or alien placement, so many nail ups don't stay that way....(I'm not saying this scaring is a GOOD thing;...it's just the way of the sandstone climbing world.). Reguardless of which scapgoat our government uses THIS time, locals comment and letter writing campaigns DO have an impact;....I say, good luck, and mark my words;....climbing will be an underground "outlaw" sport in 20 years;...enjoys our shrinking freedoms NOW;......our government is hell bent on saving us from ourselves;.....can't smoke pot or jump off El Cap either.......can't even lite a up dang cigarette in most places too! I think a big issue with climbers in Arches should be to establish "trails" to climbs, so climbers don't walk across the delicate criptogamic soil , which holds the earth together so it don't blow away. When I climbed alot in Arches (1980's), there weren't many (or any?) climbers that I ever saw;...it was a non-issue. It sure is a beautiful place. And don't poo poo the climbing on Arches thing;.....climbing on Arches is fun, and a powerful thing, and , outside of Landscape and Delicate Arch, something that climbers should be able to do legally;....it's OUR National Park, and if we minimalize our impacts;....why not be able to have these experiences?

Minime

Social climber

moab, Ut

Mar 31, 2007 - 12:00pm PT

Big thanks to my Sam, Jason et al for all the work and time you've been giving to the Arches National Parks climbing agenda so that all climbers ( novice to professional) can continue to enjoy climbing the Arches National Park, Indian Creek, and canyonland park areas.

My letter was sent!

MM

Hannah

Trad climber

Idaho

Mar 31, 2007 - 11:23pm PT

I had the opportunity to contribute to the City of Rocks climbing mngmt plan many years ago, as well as for the recent revision. I've noticed that the Natl Parks people are much more receptive to listening to climbers' concerns these days. (Perhaps the good work of the Access Fund?) The letters and emails from real live users do count, and the more cooperative in attitude they are, the more reciprocal the NPS is likely to be.

A thought about Arches: a HUGE volume of visitors goes thru that park. The primary mission of the Park managers will be to preserve this fragile resource with the expectation that usage will only grow. So climbers offering to provide solutions for use trails, staging areas (base of routes), chalk and other impacts of climbing will be very helpful.

I think a good letter to the NPS would say how important it is to you personally to continue to climb in Arches, how you recognize rules & trade-offs will be necessary to manage human impact, and how supportive you are of the local climbers' group in figuring out with the Park managers how the detailed management will be carried out. I do believe that the people who know the climbs and have already watched the impact of usage accumulate will do the best job figuring out the on-the-ground solutions.

samg

Sport climber

SLC

Apr 1, 2007 - 01:38am PT

I agree that there is a lot of climbing outside of Arches to be done- but that is no reason not to climb there.

All of the people I've climbed with in that area are the kind of people who will pick up other people's litter, not leave their own. I've not seen the same thing from many of the park's other visitors.

As far as webbing, chalk, rock damage, the need for trails etc. go, there are solutions. I think we all should express the need for the people making the policies there to draw on climbers as a resource for those solutions.

Santelices

Trad climber

Victor, ID

Apr 2, 2007 - 11:38am PT

Chris,

Thanks for posting this. I sent a comment just now.

It's a real shame that we are in this position. ALL climbers must consider the consequences of their actions on our community as a whole, not to mention on the resources where we practice our craft.

Cheers,

Christian Santelices

Melissa

Gym climber

berkeley, ca

Apr 2, 2007 - 01:55pm PT

Does the AF have a 'platform' that they are trying to push forward w/ NPS the way that they do for the Yosemite Valley plan?

It might be useful if we send comments that specific as to where and how we want to climb as opposed to just stating that we want to climb there, period. This could include some mention of what we'll do to minimize our impact. I would love to see the details of such a plan from local climbers and those who have thought about the issue more that I have.

TopRopeGun

Trad climber

Apr 2, 2007 - 02:23pm PT

Thanks for posting this!...shooting a letter today.

And a big middle finger to the Cosmic Ex-Embassadors who precipitated such a situation in the first place....let the bong smoke settle a little longer next time guys....you are supposed to be the visable and audible liasons for the climbing community...er did I mistake the meaning of ambassador? Guess they got what they deserved for doing such a great job in the position.

joane

climber

Apr 2, 2007 - 04:37pm PT

Also write to your State reps in Congress about your concerns, or maybe just send them the same comments or concerns you send to the agencies. Of course, land use is a very local thing but a lot of the reasoning for doing one thing or the other can be generalized and it is already managed at the Federal level in these cases. So along with the agencies' efforts, we should have Congress' involvement if only to know what your concerns are. And when it comes to values like balancing interests of various users of Federally funded resources and benefits, well, it seems fair to be sure the balance is as correct a possible for all individuals.

Zoid

Trad climber

Manitou Springs, CO

Apr 2, 2007 - 05:24pm PT

Tomcat,

I've gotta agree with Brad on this one...until you've climbed in Arches, you don't know what you are missing. Sure, climbing on the lower slickrock part of the entrada is pretty sketchy, but that is just one facet of the "adventure" of climbing at Arches. Sure, it's not Indian Creek, but it's not supposed to be. The thing that really stands out about climbing at Arches is the TOWERS. Some of the finest, and most challenging summits in the desert can be found there. Many of the towers that have not yet gone free can be done with clean aid, and it would be a great loss to the climbing community to loose this resource.

The point that this Climbing Management Plan review process may affect adjacent management units (i.e. Canyonlands, Capital Reef) cannot be understated. This is an opportunity to provide positive input to the NPS, rather than just standing on the sidelines and watching them do what they think needs to be done, then bitching about it afterwards when the damage is done. Most importantly, under NEPA, if you write a letter during this initial scoping process, you automatically have STANDING - very important if the decision goes the wrong way and appeals/litigation are necessary.

I've been climbing in Arches since the late '70s, and was lucky enough to get to bag a couple of the towers there. Although I'm way to fat and out-of-shape (I'm in shape; round is a shape - right) to get up any of them today, I was climbing out there just last Tuesday, and saw many lines still waiting to be done. It would be a shame to deprive future climbers of that opportunity. I'm working on my letter today!

Pete Gallagher

Odub

Trad climber

Cincy, Ohio

Apr 2, 2007 - 06:24pm PT

Posted my letter, and wrote a song. Of course, I didn't give the NPS the song...

I think the time is appropriate.... Go listen!!

http://www.soundclick.com/util/getplayer.m3u?id=5187809&q=hi

Andrew McMullin

Trad climber

Longmont, CO

Apr 3, 2007 - 01:13am PT

I read the original posting and felt the passion...clicked on the link the write a letter. Then my phone rang, and in my distraction read Tomcat's posting before finishing the letter. Suddenly I was swayed to the other side. He's pretty much right about what he says.

And then I realilzed that I was being suckered into a persuasive argument without really considering the issue...

National Parks are created for people to enjoy the environment while maintaining a low impact on that environment. I can name at least five things allowed in most or all National Parks that are way more impactful than climbing. I would be absolutely furious if my government told me I could not go there and respectfully do what I was doing straight out of the womb. (Climb) The Dean Potter issue only overshadows the bigger problem.

Tomcat, you're comments are accurate, but you are also being stubborn and missing the bigger point The energy it takes to wimper and be defeated would be much better served supporting minimum-impact climbing. It's a whole lot better than non-impact non-climbing. I've been climbing 12 years, but I am young enough to know I have a lot of fun days ahead of me at Arches.

Lastly, I climb in the Moab area all the time. Only once in a while do I venture into Arches and it is ALWAYS a really good time. NEVER more than a few other climbers there. You're right, there is tons of nearby climbing. But typically Arches isn't infiltrated with obnoxious climbers so there is no need to close it. If you REALLY had a beef with the slobbiness of climbers, you'd be better off taking it up somewhere else where it makes more sense.

I am going to write a letter and you should consider doing so as well.

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber

Toquerville, Utah

Apr 3, 2007 - 01:45am PT

Just got back from a long weekend climbing on the same formation as most of the Arches classics but just outside the park.
We were working a new line.
A wide but relatively low angle crack led to a ledge from which I drilled a ladder to a perfect 3/8" splitter. After carefully "crafting" a half dozen nut placements with pins I had a crisis of conscience.

It wasn't the constructive scarring that I was engaging in, but rather the softness of the rock that caused my dilema. I realized that, although I COULD do the climb (and it was a classic line), that it just couldn't support sustained use.
The rock was SO soft that at times I could simply work the placement by reaching into the crack with a finger and simply rubbing!
If the route was repeated a dozen times it would change more dramatically than any of the Zion classics that have seen hundreds of ascents.

I climbed back down, and my concern that it might be hard to clean the overhead and previously weighted placements proved needless. I had merely to wiggle the cable from below and the nut would jump free!

I came to the conclusion that the only kind of aid climbing that was ethical, given the obvious results of weighting more traditional anchors was,...bolts!
And with that exception, when at least it comes to aid climbing, maybe alas we had best leave Arches alone.

Even free climbing at Arches is proving to have a substantial impact due to the cumulative and unrepairing effects...

patrice

Trad climber

brussels, belgium

Apr 3, 2007 - 07:07am PT

Hi Guys,
My wife and I are experienced tradclimbers since 80's.
We are living in Europe near Brussels.
Next september,we'll have chance to visit USA for the 4th time.
We had climbed in CA and UT, we did beautiful and awesome climbs.
Especially, there, on desert sandstone, in Utah.
Believe me, we can'tfind so great climbs nowhere in Europe.
I don't understand everything because the language (as you can read!!..) but I think it should be a real pity for the climbing community if Arches NP management decide to close NP area (and maybe more in the future..)for climbing.
(I want to believe that people who climb there, necesseraly, have respect for area, people, nature and rock).
Climbers, can you imagine Europe without "Gorges du Verdon" ?
I'll write a letter to superintendent of Arches NP.
Patrice.