Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
|
|
|
Mar 27, 2007 - 11:47pm PT
|
Fiasco, about how truly screwed up the Bush handling of the Iraq war was (up to late '05). I opposed the war (and wrote to my local paper with my opposition) but, if you're going to do it, at least do it right. Totally FUBAR, to the point of criminality. I read about 85% military history and consider this a must read. Almost unbelievable.
John Hansen: I read Stephen Ambrose "D Day." Easy read, but several errors on fundamental details ruin his credibility. Two examples: He states that the German Mark V "Panther" tank was armed with an 88 mm gun. Not so, it had a deadly, high velocity 75 mm gun. He talks about German general Fritz Beyerlien as being the commander of the 12th SS "Hitler Jugend" panzer division. But he commanded the Panzer Lehr division. Small details, but easy to get right. Makes one wonder what else he screwed up. Careless author.
|
|
bonin_in_the_boneyard
Trad climber
Sittin' on the dock by the bay...
|
|
|
Mar 27, 2007 - 11:49pm PT
|
It's the only book I've ever read, finished, turned back to the first page and read again.
|
|
bonin_in_the_boneyard
Trad climber
Sittin' on the dock by the bay...
|
|
|
Mar 27, 2007 - 11:51pm PT
|
Also:
It really illustrates the confusion and uncertainty of war.
|
|
paganmonkeyboy
Trad climber
the blighted lands of hatu
|
|
|
Mar 27, 2007 - 11:51pm PT
|
"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter." Martin Luther King Jr.
Print it out and hang it up...
|
|
Wes Allen
Boulder climber
KY
|
|
|
Mar 27, 2007 - 11:55pm PT
|
Lies My Teacher Told Me: Everything Your American History Textbook Got Wrong by James W. Loewen
Guns, Germs, and Steel was also very good, though kinda more textbook like the some of the others.
|
|
john hansen
climber
|
|
|
Mar 27, 2007 - 11:56pm PT
|
Mtn young,, you are right, there are many error's and opinons that creep into historical writing... what do they call this,,
Its eluding me now. Every Author writes with some bias towards his point of view and Ambrose glorifies his subjects more than most.
They probably mounted 88's on tanks later in the war
Wes Allen,, I also appreciated 'Guns Germ's and Steel' as a history lesson .A sad tale indeed
|
|
john hansen
climber
|
|
|
Mar 28, 2007 - 12:02am PT
|
Revisionisim,,,, Thats the word I was looking for.
|
|
turd
climber
|
|
|
Mar 28, 2007 - 12:04am PT
|
Another vote for Guns Germs and Steel.
Honorable mention for Undaunted Courage, but as a child of the northwest, I am probably a little biased toward Lewis and Clark material. It's very good if you forgive Ambrose his flaws and even better if you have read the (abridged) original journals.
|
|
bonin_in_the_boneyard
Trad climber
Sittin' on the dock by the bay...
|
|
|
Mar 28, 2007 - 12:14am PT
|
Last one, I promise. My grandmother just sent me this. Good so far:
|
|
Pennsylenvy
Social climber
|
|
|
Mar 28, 2007 - 12:16am PT
|
Recently been reading some early Spanish accounts of the southwest/Texas areas when they arrived. For instance "This was densely populated country. It produced an abundant frijoles, plums like those of the Castile, and wild grape. These pueblos of rancherias extended for a three days' journey. " From Forbes' " Apache Navaho and Spaniard (his spelling) SOOOO anyways what I've learned is that we forget some histories. I like this book because it chronicals a history that has local ramifications for me in the Southwest also. When I venture out I imagine how this country used to be better. I think of the surpising numbers of people here and how little we know of them.
Didn't think I saw this book on anyone's list "Charlie Wilson's War" by George Crile- Pretty darn interesting.
Thanks for the list..I will surely poach a few titles.
|
|
bachar
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
|
|
|
Mar 28, 2007 - 12:18am PT
|
'Lies My Teacher Told Me' was a fun read...
'The Sign and the Seal', by Graham Hancock is intriguing...
'Holy Blood, Holy Grail', by Baigent, Leigh, Lincoln ...also intriguing...
|
|
hobo
climber
PDX
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 28, 2007 - 12:22am PT
|
Awesome!!! Keep em comin'!!
Alex
|
|
Festus
Mountain climber
San Diego
|
|
|
Mar 28, 2007 - 12:41am PT
|
The Guns of August
It's by Barbara Tuchman, and any of her other books are worth your time too.
|
|
bonin_in_the_boneyard
Trad climber
Sittin' on the dock by the bay...
|
|
|
Mar 28, 2007 - 12:44am PT
|
It's by Barbara Tuchman, and any of her other books are worth your time too.
Absolutely.
-----------
Recent history:
(I lied. I like knowing things and I like to share.)
|
|
mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
|
|
|
Mar 28, 2007 - 12:46am PT
|
You're right of course, John Hansen. Probably impossible not to let some bias creep in. And a little revisionism in telling the story the way you see it. But the little errors here weren't bias or revisionism, they were just wrong facts that were easy to get right. As I said, makes you wonder what else he got wrong. Really surprised me, because I was otherwise quite impressed with the immediacy of his work, all the time he took to interview veterans. (And, no, the 88 was never mounted on the Panther, although both versions of the Tiger tank used the 88 from their inception).
|
|
mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
|
|
|
Mar 28, 2007 - 12:55am PT
|
Back to the book Fiasco, though. I thought I had kept abreast of events in Iraq, but this guy really opened my eyes. The Bush administration violated every rule of planning for postwar Iraq -basically just assumed the brightest possible scenario, like they were living in a complete fantasy land. Stupidly squandered what chance we had to make something of the immediate military victory we scored in Spring '03. I've always been dismayed by Bush as president, but "oh my god!"
|
|
john hansen
climber
|
|
|
Mar 28, 2007 - 01:02am PT
|
M young ,, you seem to know your stuff.
I knew that 88's had been mounted on tanks. Makes sense they were on the Tigers. A fearsome weapon indeed.
|
|
Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
|
|
|
Mar 28, 2007 - 01:46am PT
|
The History by Herodotus. It shows people haven't changed one bit in 3000 years. Just the technology is different.
|
|
Curt
Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
|
|
|
Mar 28, 2007 - 01:49am PT
|
I've read a bunch of great history books. Probably the best was the six volume The Second World War by Winston Churchill.
A few other really good ones were:
Hirohito and the Making of Modern Japan - by Herbert Bix
Genius - the biography of Richard Feynman
Stalin - by Dmitri Volkogonov
Truman - by David McCullough
Lenin's Tomb - by David Remnick
Tuxedo Park - by Jennet Conant
Titan - the biography of J.D. Rockefeller
Those are off the top of my head. I've got a bunch more if you're interested.
Curt
|
|
john hansen
climber
|
|
|
Mar 28, 2007 - 01:51am PT
|
Pretty deep stuff Curt.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!