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Owlman
Big Wall climber
Torrey, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 25, 2007 - 08:20pm PT
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Hey Ron, Back from skiing. Sweet afternoon checking out the views of the Escalante from Boulder Mtn.
I study spotted owls mostly. Canyon gnomes.
They're doing way good actually, once the monsoon rains came back in 2004. Raptors are so simple, something to eat and a sweet spot to nest. Funny all the buzz about Peregrines. They used to nest on the banks of the Great Salt Lake (check out Willaim Behle's work - he's a classic Utah Bird Man, Also Clayton White's work too). Anyway, yeah, spotted owls have responded good since the 2000-2003 droughts hammered them.
I tend to only "haul" on steep routes. Hate to haul on low angle stuff...but I hear you man. That rock is so soft. I guess I attempt the best style for each condition. I'm pretty "green" compared to most I think, so my "footprint" is small. Still...you could say just being up there is an intrusion, no?
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Owlman
Big Wall climber
Torrey, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 25, 2007 - 08:26pm PT
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OH yeah, on DS, seems like the approach above the "secret spring" (?wedding spring boardwalks?) is the place where much care is needed. I cat footed around there to find the best approach trail...but same ole poo...lots of traversing trails and nig-nogery, with no single route. I erased some side trails, tried to shore up some blown out sections...but it was the typical circus.
Why can't parties slow down and find the best approach there?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Feb 25, 2007 - 09:36pm PT
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Moonshadow Falls?
Yeah, delicate and people don't appreciate.
Water is pretty good too.
You guys in Escalante have got it good; 75% snowpack, best in the state.
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deuce4
Big Wall climber
the Southwest
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Not sure what the quote above is attributed to me is all about. Pretty sure I never said such a thing, but I can imagine having said, 'Who gives a fu*k what you think?' (emphasis on the particular 'you').
Days of No Future went mostly clean on the first ascent. The only bolts placed were on belays, and on the more technical nailing pitches, I would say at most only every third placement was nailing. And a majority of the hammered placements were beaks, which when cleaned properly don't do much damage.
The upper pitches were pretty soft rock, though, sugary sand pitches which I suppose will degrade no matter how climbed.
I always chose my Zion lines carefully, picking lines that were mostly natural. Before any rumors get started, climb some of my routes there, I think you'll find that they have remained in good shape because of the naturalness of the lines, and without the need for a lot of unnatural fixed anchors which will eventually be garbage.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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You sure you want to deny the statement John?
You said it on the phone and I have it on tape though I'm sure you would prefer to "remember" otherwise.
"Natural" lines that require shallow nailing undergo the most radical alteration with passage, and unless subsequent parties hand place their beaks (which should happen about the time monkeys fly out of my butt) the same will apply to those routes as well.
Let me know when the,.. what was it you said?,.. the "naturalness" of your routes permits them to see as many ascents as those routes with what you call garbage fixed anchors.
Either of us should live so long.
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Jello
Social climber
No Ut
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Ron, remember that time I visited you at your house and we had a nice dinner and a few drinks, then sat down in your living room to watch a video. You brought out the pipe, and after a while, I told you I absolutely was unable to move, and would have to sleep right there where I sat? Well, there were monkeys flying out of your butt that night, for sure!
Just joking...
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Well I was going to say "out of Rowen's butt" but I figured that a new father who still finds diapers to be pleasant smelling might be touchy, but candor is candor.
I've called John on the lack of it before.
Anyway Jeff, if memory serves, that was the night we watched Coral Sea Dreaming and in addition to wanting to use the couch I seem to recall you asking me for a snorkel.
Too bad you have ear problems. SCUBA would get you places you'd really dig. Under water you can make truly amazing moves bouldering coral.
but back to (P)reserving Zion Walls...
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Kevster
Trad climber
Evergreen, CO
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Owlman....take 5 days and screw all the whiners. I think the only time there is really a problem with a party taking a lot longer than normal to climb a route is when they are unwilling to allow others to pass.
Ron, you and John need to play nice. Obviously you two have different objectives when it comes to doing new routes. Ron, by creating clean classics don't you see how you have created more of a impact on the rock. I get the sense that Dueces routes, although maybe not as easily climbed clean, probably suffer from much less impact due to the nature of the climbing. So to bicker about who has caused "less impact" is pretty stupid if you ask me.
I would bet that most people would say that the super classic Zion routes are creating most of the impact in the canyon. Eventual regulation will likely arise to midigate this impact . While A4's that only get repeated once a year will hardly be considered part of the issue.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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So "classic routes are creating the impact"?
Gee, I thought it was the climbers.
So according to Kevster we just ought to put up crappy routes. That would REALLY reduce the impact.
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More Air
Big Wall climber
S.L.C.
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Kevster said:
"I would bet that most people would say that the super classic Zion routes are creating most of the impact in the canyon"
I agree, moderate routes with a lot of bolts attract the masses. For example, by adding a bolt ladder to the first pitch of Touchstone, that route is now in my opinion, many times more popular, increasing "resource degradation".
Having climbed routes put up by both John and Ron, I'd say that John's routes are at a much higher standard, especially when you consider using all of the natural features the rock has to offer. A first ascent party has just as much of a right to climb a more technical, thin aid line as Ron does, over bolting his trade routes.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Brian should study history a little more carefully. In the 19th century it was claimed that rain would follow the plow.
Is it just me or does More Hot Air's post smack of elitism?
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tenesmus
Trad climber
slc
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Hey - what's this about a non-bolt ladder start to Touchstone? Why would you need a bolt ladder if there was already a natural crack there in the first place?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Well Tennis Mouse,
on the original pitch I did some aid looking at groundfall from 10m. It has subsequently become far easier with nailing wear eventually allowing a "free" ascent using pin pockets.
And, oh yes, that pitch was also repeatedly retrobolted.
As a result I eventually opted for a more durable (hopefully) start.
That, and the bolts in the final pitch, have dropped the overall grade of the route, but I still enjoy it immensely.
If YOU don't there are other walls.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Jarhead City, CA
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Yes, there is a start a few feet farther right on Touchstone that's a thin crack and tops out on the same ledge as the bolt ladder.
Here's a proposal that Piton Ron might like...just climb the trade routes until they are beat-out and no good as normal routes, then turn them into Via-Ferrata. I know Ron would approve, because he has guided Via Ferrata up there in Ogden:
(From the NYTimes): "“Via ferrata is probably the quickest way for a new climber to get up high and exposed in the mountains,” said Ron Olevsky, a 52-year-old climbing guide from Toquerville, Utah, "
But...but...that's private property, so it's different right? Right?
"At the base of the first climb, the canyon’s namesake waterfall misting just upstream, Mr. Olevsky double-checked harnesses and lanyard setups. A rebar ladder rung stuck off the wall at shoulder height. A silver cable, galvanized steel and a quarter-inch in diameter, traced a path on the cliff above."
Rebar? Steel cable? Hey, that's low impact, sustainable climbing there.
Now, I'm just stirring the pot here, don't really have an opinion on via ferrata, or how people establish their routes. But trade routes are trade routes because they are easy and/or quality. Limiting the bulk of impact to a few routes might be a net positive in the end...or maybe not.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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LOL
That's not me BTW Elyazz.
I thought Touchstone and Prodigal already WERE via feratta!
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Jarhead City, CA
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Didn't say or imply (purposely anyway) that it was you...that guy is way taller than you...put the pic up because it was in the article and shows the nice, low impact rebar ladder.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Oh!
I thought "low impact" referred to a route's steepness because of where the bodies first hit.
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streetshoes
Social climber
Tucson
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O.K., why not really confuse the issue by taking a geologic perspective.....
In a short million years, ALL of Zion's routes will be just so much sand bar somewhere between Virgin and the mouth of the Colorado.
(I might add as a caveat that Ron's routes may survive as rust-welded free-standing pinnacles that could become future tourist attractions, and will further be protected by the Antiquities Act)
Does that mean we shouldn't care? Of course not, but it does point out that, objectively, in large part this all comes down to human perception of aesthetics, and, as Stuart Smalley might say......that's O.K.! The other side of the equation relates to the 'what' of 'what is climbing'.
On the aesthetic side, you can't play it both ways: it is totally hipocritical to 'establish' routes that are easily travelled by the masses and then to bemoan the impact. On the other hand, as I've said in prior forums, I don't see that having 'a few' sacrifice routes does that much harm. Still, one has to remain amused at Ron's hubris in raising the impact issue considering his antics in Snow Canyon and the Temple of Sinewava.
On the 'what is climbing' side, everyone has a right to weigh-in on what it means to them personally to climb in Zion. However, it seems pretty obvious to me that the degree to which purported 'Zion climbers' need to bring a climb down to their level with more extensive bolting, is also the degree to which they loose credibility with respect to posing as conservationists.
So, again, while I think a little dumbing down is O.K. (if only to keep Ron around for amusement), I further think it is perfectly O.K. for those who value NOT overly dumbing down routes to be critical of those who do. And, yes, harder routes are self-limiting and thus helps to preserve the rock. What could possibly be wrong with that?
Lastly, let's get over this victim mentality that people are 'owed' the right to get up a climb....they're not. That idea permeates sport climbing, and let's not let it into any discussion of Zion climbing.
hasta luego
D
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Again, a matter of perspective, though refreshing to hear you say it.
But a distinction should be acknowledged between climbing a challenging route in good style and then making subsequent compromises that recognize critical wear points thereby extending viability.
And to suggest that because one disapproves of a few of my hundreds of routes that somehow the other efforts are invalid speaks volumes of one's open mindedness.
Such criticism could not be posed at a more maladroit moment considering the last route I put up.
(I suppose that will have to remain a private joke for now.)
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yo
climber
The Eye of the Snail
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Ron himself is protected by the Antiquities Act.
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