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briham89
Big Wall climber
santa cruz, ca
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May 22, 2019 - 10:29pm PT
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with the sole exception of Da Brim, who felt mocked and unwelcome due to inappropriate posts by a handful of people.
LOL!!!!!! I'm going to miss this place.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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May 23, 2019 - 04:31am PT
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And of course Chester books who complained publicly in a thread!
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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May 23, 2019 - 07:16am PT
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Ken, I think it's going to take the very approach you are suggesting, and if you'll take the matter up, I have some hope that there's a long-term future for a genuine ST Alternative.
Thank you, and more power to you! If you need help, let me know. I'm hoping that this will be a viable "if you build it, they will come" sort of effort.
My particular suggestions at this point are two:
1) Go with a single forum rather than broken-up "subjects," and let the active threads percolate to the front page, exactly as ST does.
2) Allow users to have "handles," but sign-up is a verified, real-name process. That way, there is a bit of toothiness to banning. Then, have fairly "light touch" moderation, but inveterate trolls and bullies get one formal warning and then banned. Such an approach is far from perfect, but it will cut down on a lot of the ridiculousness, imo.
Again, thank you!
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Roots
Mountain climber
Somewhere Fun
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May 23, 2019 - 08:41am PT
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I'd like to see one website that we are all on.
I do not like forums with one place to post. There should be sub-forums...especially a "sandbox" where it is barely moderated. -you don't like, you don't go into that sub.
Best of luck to all you competing site creators...not sure where we will wind up but we will be back together soon.
PS Facebook [snip]
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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May 23, 2019 - 09:37am PT
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not sure where we will wind up but we will be back together soon.
Yes, in Valhalla, where the glorious battles rage throughout eternity!
;-)
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BooDawg
Social climber
Butterfly Town
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May 23, 2019 - 09:45am PT
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I was able to register on climberstacosalad with no problems, but it will take a learning curve and practice for me and probably others to be at ease with posting photos and navigating the site. GREAT EFFORT, HAPPIEGRRRL!
So, MushPuppyKen, since you have the requisite skills, motivation, and the desire for a civil, respectful climbers' forum, why not join the climberstacosalad as an administrator and help create a new climbers' forum???
An independent forum and one on FB are not mutually exclusive, so if you have reasons for NOT join the "salad," let's hear them! Thanks for your thoughtfulness and motivation.
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burnin' vernon
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - May 23, 2019 - 06:35pm PT
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Greets All:
I was actually on this pretty early after the ST going dark
announcement. Unfortunately, in an effort at consensus building, I
waited far too long on responses to member to member emails. I then
was feeling a bit put off about investing time, effort, and money when
I was not only seemingly being ignored but some of the very folks I
was reaching out to subsequently put up competing alternatives during
the interim, so I decided "f*#kit". I rethought it and decided to
move forward after talking with a few friends about it.
So... here we are... time keeps on slippin', slippin', slippin' into
the future... 'wasted' too much of it being patient. Spouse had a bit
of an mishap the other day (she's fine) otherwise they'd be online
already. We will be traveling during the Memorial Day Holidays so I
will be afk until next week. So.. if y'all will endeavor to be a bit
patient, like I was, they'll be rockin' shortly after my return. If
that is not soon enough. Oh well. Mea culpa for not just doing it
right off the bat.
As to why I don't use free forums, reddit, fb, etc.? I eschew
mediocrity ;-p
For the more technically savvy: I run/manage a fairly comprehensive
infrastucture: mail, dns, app, database, web servers, etc. All under
my roof. In geek terms, I eat my own dog food so no passing the buck
if/when something breaks. And since 100% of any breakage (cuz you're
a fool if you think sh#t won't ever happen) is under my auspices, I
can fix it w/o having to wait on lamer support folks who oft times are
fairly clueless until you get your issue kicked up the ladder a few
rungs.
In non geek terms.... uhh... my email servers actually work ;)
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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May 23, 2019 - 07:49pm PT
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RJ and Chris Mac
I just wanted to thank you two for the taco for all of the years I've
been able to use it. You guys have done an awesome job, and it's not too late to THANK YOU SO MUCH!!!!!!
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L
climber
Just livin' the dream
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May 23, 2019 - 07:57pm PT
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As to why I don't use free forums, reddit, fb, etc.? I eschew
mediocrity ;-p
The Taco's gonna be a hard act to follow...but you certainly have the right attitude. Hope you can pull it off.
We'll be waiting here patiently..........until June 1st, that is.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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May 23, 2019 - 08:03pm PT
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Bring it, burnin'! Sounds like you've got the goods. I, for one, am hoping to see a genuine alternative rather than the "hobbiest" approaches taken thus far.
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burnin' vernon
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - May 23, 2019 - 08:04pm PT
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Thank you for the encouragement.
fyi, the forums, once live, will be accessible here:
forums.redpointuniversity.com
I'll update this thread once they go live.
Now I must get back to packing fer' our road trip. Yeah!! ;D
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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May 24, 2019 - 11:22am PT
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Good luck, Ken. Get the ball rolling and hopefully it will be easy for non-techy guys like me. I am ready to check it out and contribute....good luck designing this and hopefully it will be up soon. I do believe people are ready to rally! I mainly post pictures,...and odds bits of beta here and there...
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rbolton
Social climber
The home.
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May 24, 2019 - 12:14pm PT
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Get it, Ken. Let us know what kind of support you need. This has a good sound to it.
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Loose Rocks
Trad climber
Santa Rosa, CA
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May 24, 2019 - 12:23pm PT
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The new site should have three sub-forums:
Climb-on: Climbing content including TRs.
Politards: A place for the bald to argue over combs. (whomever first posted that, thank you)
Off-topic: Everything else. (dogs, cats, art, what are you building, vans …)
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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May 24, 2019 - 12:47pm PT
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The party is getting started.
^^^ Uh, not too sure....
From Proboard's terms of service:
YOU KNOWINGLY AND FREELY ASSUME ALL RISK WHEN USING THE WEBSITE AND SERVICES. YOU, ON BEHALF OF YOURSELF, YOUR PERSONAL REPRESENTATIVES AND YOUR HEIRS, HEREBY VOLUNTARILY AGREE TO RELEASE, WAIVE, DISCHARGE, HOLD HARMLESS, DEFEND AND INDEMNIFY PROBOARDS AND ITS OFFICERS, DIRECTORS, EMPLOYEES, AGENTS, AFFILIATES, REPRESENTATIVES, SUBLICENSEES, SUCCESSORS, AND ASSIGNS (COLLECTIVELY, THE "PROBOARDS PARTIES") FROM ANY AND ALL CLAIMS, ACTIONS OR LOSSES FOR BODILY INJURY, PROPERTY DAMAGE, WRONGFUL DEATH, EMOTIONAL DISTRESS, LOSS OF PRIVACY OR OTHER DAMAGES OR HARM, WHETHER TO YOU OR TO THIRD PARTIES, WHICH MAY RESULT FROM YOUR USE OF THE WEBSITE AND SERVICES.
Are the people who started the Taco Salad forum prepared to ante up for all that PERSONALLY (and by extension ANYBODY even remotely related) at the level this clause asserts? Do those people know what "indemnify" means? Do those people carry multi-million-dollar insurance policies against such eventualities, particularly in light of the (apparent) fact that legal action related to SuperTopo is what appears to have most strongly motivated the plug-pulling?
YOU HEREBY GRANT THE PROBOARDS PARTIES A PERPETUAL, FULLY PAID-UP, WORLDWIDE, SUBLICENSABLE, IRREVOCABLE, ASSIGNABLE LICENSE TO COPY, DISTRIBUTE, TRANSMIT, PUBLICLY DISPLAY OR PERFORM, EDIT, TRANSLATE, REFORMAT AND OTHERWISE USE USER CONTENT IN CONNECTION WITH THE OPERATION OF THE WEBSITE, SERVICES OR ANY OTHER SIMILAR OR RELATED BUSINESS, IN ANY MEDIUM NOW EXISTING OR LATER DEVISED, INCLUDING WITHOUT LIMITATION IN ADVERTISING AND PUBLICITY. YOU FURTHER AGREE THAT THE PROBOARDS PARTIES MAY PUBLISH OR OTHERWISE DISCLOSE YOUR PERSONAL INFORMATION IN CONNECTION WITH THEIR EXERCISE OF THE LICENSE GRANTED UNDER THIS SECTION. YOU AGREE TO WAIVE, AND HEREBY WAIVE, ANY CLAIMS ARISING FROM OR RELATING TO THE EXERCISE BY THE PROBOARDS PARTIES OF THE RIGHTS GRANTED UNDER THIS SECTION, INCLUDING WITHOUT LIMITATION ANY CLAIMS RELATING TO YOUR RIGHTS OF PERSONAL PRIVACY AND PUBLICITY. YOU WILL NOT BE COMPENSATED FOR ANY EXERCISE OF THE LICENSE GRANTED UNDER THIS SECTION.
From my perspective, it was one thing to grant SuperTopo similar rights, but everybody using the Taco Salad forum needs to realize very explicitly that their content is then "licensed" (owned) in every possible way by a mega-corp that doesn't have a shred of interest in the community, its history, or its motivations.
If you are cool with that, cool. I'm not. People need to know what they are signing up for.
You hereby represent and warrant that You own all rights, title and interest in and to User Content or are otherwise authorized to grant the rights provided the ProBoards Parties under this section.
You are, and shall remain, solely responsible for the User Content you upload, submit, post, transmit, communicate, share or exchange by means of any Public Forum and for the consequences of submitting or posting same. PROBOARDS DISCLAIMS ANY PERCEIVED, IMPLIED OR ACTUAL DUTY TO MONITOR PUBLIC FORUMS AND SPECIFICALLY DISCLAIMS ANY RESPONSIBILITY OR LIABILITY FOR INFORMATION PROVIDED THEREON.
Those in charge of Taco Salad need to understand what Proboards is accomplishing with this and the above sections of its terms of service. Proboards is very explicitly stating: "WE get to reside within Safe Harbor at the expense of requiring YOU to assert that YOU do not get Safe Harbor because YOU assert that YOU own and have all rights to whatever material is posted to YOUR forum."
Ready to ante up for that?
There's more:
You agree and understand that you may be held legally responsible for damages suffered by other Website members or third-parties as the result of Your remarks, information, feedback or other content posted or made available on the Website that is deemed defamatory or otherwise legally actionable. Under the Federal Communications Decency Act of 1996, ProBoards is not legally responsible, nor can it be held liable for damages of any kind, arising out of or in connection to any defamatory or otherwise legally actionable remarks, information, feedback or other content posted or made available on the Website.
There's a similar clause regarding "objectionable content," which is very broadly construed.
Ready to ante up for those?
ProBoards imposes certain restrictions on Your use of the Website and the Services. You represent and warrant that you will not:... (d) while, using the Website and Services, use "ad blocking" software or similar built-in web browser options designed to hide, block or prevent the proper display of online advertising;... Any violation of this section may subject You to civil and/or criminal liability.
NO use of ad-blockers. Got that?
You agree not to upload, post, transmit, display, perform or distribute any content, information or other materials in violation of any third-party's copyrights, trademarks, or other intellectual property or proprietary rights. YOU SHALL BE SOLELY RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY VIOLATIONS OF ANY LAWS AND FOR ANY INFRINGEMENTS OF THIRD-PARTY RIGHTS CAUSED BY YOUR USE OF THE WEBSITE AND SERVICES. YOUR BEAR THE SOLE BURDEN OF PROVING THAT CONTENT, INFORMATION OR OTHER MATERIALS DO NOT VIOLATE ANY LAWS OR THIRD-PARTY RIGHTS. PROBOARDS TERMINATES ACCOUNTS OF USERS DETERMINED TO BE REPEAT INFRINGERS.
The "you" referenced here is the "owner" of the sub-forum, in this case the principle(s) of Taco Salad. In short, if Proboards finds Taco Salad to engage in the sorts of behavior that was the bane of SuperTopo, it's going to shut Taco Salad down. So, Taco Salad will need to be very carefully monitored, supervised, and moderated... activities that further make Proboard's case the IT has Safe Harbor and "you" do not.
Without limiting any indemnification provision of this Agreement, You agree to defend, indemnify and hold harmless ProBoards and its officers, directors, employees, agents, affiliates, representatives, sublicensees, successors, assigns, and Industry Professionals (collectively, the "Indemnified Parties") from and against any and all claims, actions, demands, causes of action and other proceedings (collectively, "Claims"), including but not limited to legal costs and fees, arising out of or relating to: (i) Your breach of this Agreement, including without limitation any representation or warranty contained in this Agreement; (ii) Your access to or use of the Website or Services; (iii) Your provision to ProBoards or any of the Indemnified Parties of information or other data; or (iv) Your violation or alleged violation of any foreign or domestic, federal, state or local law or regulation; (v) Your violation or alleged violation of any third party's copyrights, trademarks, or other intellectual property or proprietary rights; or (vi) any goods or services you advertise or solicit through the Website and/or Services.
More sweeping language to say: "YOU indemnify US and not the other way around. YOU take all risks, not US! WE throw YOU to the wolves in any dispute."
WITHOUT LIMITING ANY OTHER PROVISION OF THIS AGREEMENT, PROBOARDS RESERVES THE RIGHT TO, IN PROBOARDS' SOLE DISCRETION AND WITHOUT NOTICE OR LIABILITY, DENY USE OF THE WEBSITE AND/OR SERVICES TO ANY PERSON FOR ANY REASON OR FOR NO REASON AT ALL, INCLUDING WITHOUT LIMITATION FOR ANY BREACH OR SUSPECTED BREACH OF ANY REPRESENTATION, WARRANTY OR COVENANT CONTAINED IN THIS AGREEMENT, OR OF ANY APPLICABLE LAW OR REGULATION.
Read: "Even if you do everything right, we can shut you down at a moment's notice for any or no reason at all."
Upon termination, all rights and obligations created by this Agreement will terminate, except that Sections 1, 2, 4-8, 9-10, 14-27 will survive any termination of this Agreement.
Clauses like this are always my favorite whenever I see them in a contract being foisted off on us, and I NEVER sign a contract with such a clause in it. Period.
It's entirely unilateral, and it's entirely open-ended. It puts "you" on the hook indefinitely. Are the principle(s) of Taco Salad prepared to ante up for this?
It goes on. I've quoted just a few of the more egregious clauses in the agreement that the principle(s) of Taco Salad have already agreed to. Collectively they constitute an "agreement" that is so unilateral and sweeping that the legal implications are astounding.
Ahh, what could go wrong? No worries. Right?
Whatever. But I won't put my time into such a venue. The more popular Taco Salad becomes, the higher are the odds that the above clauses are going to get the principle(s) into significant trouble and/or shut the forum down. I do not believe that Taco Salad "has legs" or will last even a few years.
I'm not being a "naysayer" just to be "negative." I'm only saying that these sorts of "hobbiest" approaches are NOT even in the vicinity of a ST Alternative, and I await somebody (hopefully like Ken) to do this whole thing right.
Ken, as I said, if I can be helpful, I will be. And I'm willing to contribute money to the effort, if it's going to be done right. Plan on buying good insurance!
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
https://nutagain.org
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May 24, 2019 - 12:51pm PT
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I think sub-forums is the wrong approach. That is like the old Yahoo directory-view of the Internet before Google crushed them. It's too painful to navigate around to find where the happenin' conversations are. A better approach:
1. Rely on tags that the author can assign to the thread, and that contributors and readers can also assign to the thread. Fancier would be to distinguish whether tag assignments done by the author vs contributor vs reader, but that might be too complicated for most folks to use or care about. It can be built into the feature set and exposed to users who want it, but have smart defaults that lump them all together (e.g. a variable alias "tag" that matches the union of {author_tag, contributor_tag, reader_tag} or perhaps have separate variables for tag and tag_source.
2. Default view is to show everything, a la supertopo
3. Links/tabs at the top can provide the equivalent of sub-forums: (For Sale, TRs, Non-Climbing, Politics/Chaos, etc.). This creates a filtered list of topics that match the tags for the most frequently used tags or tags most desired to be highlighted/emphasized by the admins.
4. Have a search window to specify boolean combinations of tags, like:
TR and Climb
TR and not Climb
TR and (Climb or Ski)
Historical and Yosemite
5. These boolean operations should be encoded in GET string (of course sanity-check user input first), so people can bookmark the resultant searches and save the view that makes them happy.
6. Maybe add in a NSFW (not safe for work) tag that anyone can assign, and by default this is *not* displayed in the default new user view. One would have to click a link (or construct a tag query) to include the NSFW tag.
7. Take this thread-level idea down to individual posts, to create a sort of built-in grease-monkey for end users: enable filtering out specific authors from thread results.
8. Enable users to enable/disable NSFW posts within a given thread.
9. It's complicated for how to crowd-source the NSFW labels without it becoming weaponized for censorship or bullying. Some ideas:
 require a specific karma/rating for the user before they are allowed to mark others' content as NSFW
require N number of users to tag a post or thread as NSFW before the tag is applied
This gives everybody what they want, mass user-customization, with minimal to no operations overhead. Nobody wants to spend hours looking at lists of messages or actions awaiting approval. A forum that depends on this will die.
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Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
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May 25, 2019 - 06:00am PT
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If the OP will contact me, either as Happiegrrrl or Administrator, on Climbers Taco Salad with a direct link to the forum once it's live, I will happily make sure it's prevelantly displayed, to aid in migration.
When I read the first post from OP and it didn't gain much traction, probably as the OP wasn't "known," I thought it didn't look like it was going anywhere and that was why I made CST.
I'll stay with CTS as needed, and if it becomes obsolete in lieu of OP's forum, than that is fine by me, and I'll let CTS go when it's clearly not needed.
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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May 25, 2019 - 08:00am PT
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PFJ? PFJ? Eff the PFJ!
We're the JPF!
Splitters!
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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May 25, 2019 - 05:05pm PT
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That's gracious, Happi. I personally appreciate your attitude. Thank you.
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