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wilbeer
Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
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Apr 22, 2019 - 05:32pm PT
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This ain’t FREE.
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grover
climber
Castlegar BC
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Apr 22, 2019 - 05:32pm PT
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Well said Anders.
As well, Chris and the Taco owe us nothing. Sad to see so many people bent out of shape over a simple rule (that is not new). Meh
Post less-Climb more
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
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Apr 22, 2019 - 05:36pm PT
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A 501c is not necessary,as long as it is member funded.
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ruppell
climber
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Apr 22, 2019 - 05:45pm PT
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As well, Chris and the Taco owe us nothing. Sad to see so many people bent out of shape over a simple rule (that is not new). Meh
Post less-Climb more
Or you could look at it the other way. The membership owes nothing, it is free after all, and the ownership owes something to the members.
That something would be easy to figure out if that old rule had always been enforced. It hasn't.
The new rules are the old rules. I get it. The problem is that the old rules where never enforced. Suddenly, rules get enforced with such authority that it changes the nature of the site. I feel I can clearly speak to the nature of that change because in years of "membership" I've never had a single gripe with how the site was run. Now, I have many.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Apr 22, 2019 - 05:59pm PT
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but it would be great if donations from members also helped cover the costs.
I'm finding myself confused by this post. I've repeatedly stated that I would donate and even support a membership-subscription model, but in response to such suggestions what I read was along the lines of: Chris et al would support an alternate "historical archive" but aren't interested in the overhead of managing this forum in anything like its current form.
Then I read things from RJ like, "Maybe it should be," in response to "just shut it down."
In short, I would donate to THIS forum/site IF I had any confidence that IT would be maintained. But the management seems SO ambivalent and inconsistent over the past few days that I literally have no idea what they are thinking.
If the management would provide some CLEAR leadership/direction regarding this forum, other than "quit making political threads and posting copyrighted content," then I believe that MANY of us could get behind said direction and even financially support it! But the last few days have only increased my confusion.
And, believe me (as I think that my own posts on multiple threads over the past few days clearly demonstrate), I'm not bringing an "attitude problem" to this discussion! I am genuinely and in good faith trying to understand, comply, and contribute positively to SuperTopo and the community it has fostered.
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Dave
Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
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Apr 22, 2019 - 06:16pm PT
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I've been active in one way or another on this site since 2003 or so.
With the history and spirit of the site being quickly strangled, I'll probably be fading away.
The virtual campfire was what made this place, with all the various personalities.
I guess as goes California, so goes the Taco.
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RJ Spurrier
SuperTopo staff member
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Apr 22, 2019 - 06:18pm PT
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madbolter1:
I would donate to THIS forum/site IF I had any confidence that IT would be maintained.
Your concern is quite reasonable and appropriate.
At this time, the SuperTopo Forum is not a separate non-profit with a defined mission. It is simply a money-losing website supported by subsidies from Chris and SuperTopo LLC.
Your concerns about what the non-profit SuperTopo might be, what its mission is, and whether that mission is worthy of your support are perfectly reasonable.
Yet, I think those questions are best deferred for now.
Today, there is no non-profit SuperTopo so the questions are literally moot.
If there was one in the future, it would need a clear mission. It would also make sense to develop a clear policy on whether multi-page scans of copyrighted print article content that lack permission to use are cool on the non-profit site (don't count on it, since the non-profit Wikipedia clearly won't allow it). It would also seem courteous to make a policy on whether only climbing-related political topics are OK, or whether any and all political topics are welcome here.
You will be wise to wait to decide on whether a non-profit SuperTopo is a worthwhile cause until these questions are decided.
Today, no one is asking for your donation. The only financial support today for this forum is Chris and SuperTopo LLC, offset partially by google ad revenues.
rj
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
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Apr 22, 2019 - 06:23pm PT
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It could be privatized and funded by members.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Apr 22, 2019 - 06:31pm PT
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I think those questions are best deferred for now.
I appreciate your response, RJ. And what I quote from you here does sum it up for me. I'm satisfied for now.
Please count me in should you guys decide to move forward with a donation model to keep this thing alive.
MUCH appreciated!
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
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Apr 22, 2019 - 06:34pm PT
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I second.
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johntp
Trad climber
Punter, Little Rock
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Apr 22, 2019 - 06:36pm PT
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It could be privatized and funded by members.
Yup. I participate on a backpacking forum that is member funded. It really doesn't cost that much. The backpacking forum has NO outside advertising content/links.
I'm a bit surprised that all the links to advertisements can't fund the forum. Doesn't the forum get remuneration from the advertisers?
What are the taco's expenses? By category: servers, moderation, utilities, etc.
What is the income from advertisers/links?
What does it cost annually to run this place?
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Apr 22, 2019 - 10:35pm PT
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I'll donate if you make my (personally owned) embedded images visible and not a link. :)
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Gunkie
Trad climber
Valles Marineris
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 23, 2019 - 05:47am PT
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Please count me in should you guys decide to move forward with a donation model to keep this thing alive.
Count me in.
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Ezra Ellis
Trad climber
North wet, and Da souf
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Apr 23, 2019 - 06:06am PT
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RJ
Should you and CMAC see if REI wants to purchase this site?
Or maybe that would be sacrilege?
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Apr 23, 2019 - 07:12am PT
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Informative thread.
Thanks RJ.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Apr 23, 2019 - 07:26am PT
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501c3 educational nonprofit status is the way forward in this situation for several reasons and would allow some legal fair use protection against the kind of threats that have led us to this point. It would also allow the historical content of this forum to be more easily preserved long term.
I am glad that this option is being given serious consideration to keep the ST from riding off in a Big Yellow Taxi.
Have some patience people.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Apr 23, 2019 - 06:56pm PT
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Antbody care to offer up real numbers of what it costs to run a site such as Supertopo or similar on an annual basis?
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Apr 23, 2019 - 07:04pm PT
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"Should you and CMAC see if REI wants to purchase this site?"
FOR GOD'S SAKE, NO.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Apr 23, 2019 - 08:22pm PT
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It would seem fair to say, by way of analogy, that the forum has been having digestion issues over the last few years.
Many of us thought it might be headed for a crash on that account alone.
Now it has major heartburn, which would seem to have come out of the blue, and though we users are feeling it because our free toy is broken, clearly the brunt of it is being felt by RJ and CMAC, who are having to deal with the cause of the current malaise (legal threats), as opposed to us users who are suffering only the functional changes brought on by the threats.
Someone mentioned that with change comes opportunity. Let's hope so. As to the changes thus far: many of us will adjust, I'm sure.
Just watching you work through all of these Q&A over the last few days, RJ, I have to imagine it's getting exhausting?
These couple of threads have been quite instructive and informative for us readers, I can assure you. And frankly, the tenor of it has remained very civil and even positive. It seems there is opportunity for bonding here, if nothing else. And it should be instructive to you and CMAC just how much we all value what you've built.
That said, I gotta wonder about the stamina of you and CMAC. It seems you guys could just toss in the towel at any time now. Can't say I would blame either of you if that's what happens.
Hoping for a better outcome. It will certainly be interesting to see if the move to a nonprofit or some new structural format creates something better for all in the long-term.
-Roy
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Apr 24, 2019 - 01:53am PT
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