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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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just here to throw pork grease on the fire.
Say you voted for Bush twice?
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Wild Bill
climber
Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 1, 2007 - 01:38pm PT
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Bump, after reading LEB's "Position papers" on global warming on the "inconvenient truth" thread.
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Yes, more fat on the fire. Keep the fire going and hot.
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Wild Bill
climber
Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 23, 2007 - 11:52am PT
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Too funny! "Don't touch my arm, you bitch, or you'll disappear!"
Karl Rove’s Confrontation With Laurie David And Sheryl Crow
By Joe Gandelman
White House political maven Karl Rove met outspoken global warming action advocates Laurie David and Sheryl Crow and according to Ms. David’s eyebrow-raising post on The Huffington Post it seems as if Mr. Rove doesn’t like being questioned, touched on the arm and has quite a temper.
In a sense, the post seems symbolic of this administration’s entire attitude to those who not only have differing ideas on policies but deem to confront them directly and ask for answers. Mr. Rove’s attitude if you read the post in full (which you MUST and make up your mind is) “We are the deciders SO THERE.” A few highlights:
We asked Mr. Rove if he would consider taking a fresh look at the science of global warming. Much to our dismay, he immediately got combative. And it went downhill from there.
We reminded the senior White House adviser that the US leads the world in global warming pollution and we are doing the least about it. Anger flaring, Mr. Rove immediately regurgitated the official Administration position on global warming which is that the US spends more on researching the causes than any other country.
We felt compelled to remind him that the research is done and the results are in (www.IPCC.ch). Mr. Rove exploded with even more venom. Like a spoiled child throwing a tantrum, Mr. Rove launched into a series of illogical arguments regarding China not doing enough thus neither should we. (Since when do we follow China’s lead?)
But it gets WORSE:
In his attempt to dismiss us, Mr. Rove turned to head toward his table, but as soon as he did so, Sheryl reached out to touch his arm. Karl swung around and spat, “Don’t touch me.” How hardened and removed from reality must a person be to refuse to be touched by Sheryl Crow? Unphased, Sheryl abruptly responded, “You can’t speak to us like that, you work for us.” Karl then quipped, “I don’t work for you, I work for the American people.” To which Sheryl promptly reminded him, “We are the American people.”
At that point Mr. Rove apparently decided he had had enough. Like a groundhog fearful of his own shadow, he scurried to his table in an attempt to hibernate for another year from his responsibility to address global warming. Drama aside, you would expect as an American citizen to be able to engage in a civil discussion with a public official. Instead, Mr. Rove was dismissive, condescending, and quite frankly a bully.
Most people have assumed that the combative, “my way or the highway” attitude of this administration on a host of issues where it eschews consensus, honest deliberation and discussion with critics or those who simply have other ideas, comes from the top.
But, no, this post suggests the attitude can’t just be blamed on GWB. His advisers share the same perception of those who question what they do and want to seriously dialogue with them.
Which means it will be a very bumpy two more years.
And the White House — and Republicans — should brace themselves for more polls heading steadily south.
entire article here: http://themoderatevoice.com/politics/12385/karl-roves-confrontation-with-laurie-david-and-sheryl-crow/
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Apr 23, 2007 - 01:00pm PT
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"If all this means is that I have to place my blanket a foot or two further up the beach at Laguna, I'll adapt. "
You'll also adapt to the new tropical diseases that will result from an expanded tropical climate and wider ranges of disease vectors like mosquitoes. And by adapt of course I mean get used to your friends and family getting sick or dying from them.
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Mimi
climber
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Apr 23, 2007 - 01:08pm PT
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Just to throw some brisket fat on the fire...it is very hard to have a serious discussion on this topic with someone who has little to no science background, especially when he/she has made their mind up already.
Thanks to GW hysteria, EPA is already developing bad policy which will lead to very expensive poorly written regulations. Let's hope Congress can stem this foolhardy landslide toward wrecking the economy and imposing more regressive costs on our working poor.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 23, 2007 - 01:26pm PT
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Global warming IS a joke! but not the only one.
For instance, there are some idiots that think that the air over Los Angeles isn't clear because of all the cars and industry down in Southern California. That's silly! The air is a huge space and extends all the way out to space! How could our tiny cars make a difference?
I don't know why God made the air in LA so dark, probably so the Sunsets would be better, but more money needs to be spent in research to find out if it's true.
;-) (so the deniers don't think I'm serious)
On the other hand, I have little confidence the people of the world will change our habits until it's too late so perhaps our efforts would be better spent not rebuilding New Orleans and transitioning folks out of coastal areas that will be under water in a few generations
Karl
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L
climber
NoName City and It Don't Look Pretty
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Apr 23, 2007 - 01:28pm PT
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You know when ABC, NBC, CNN and the rest of the day-late, dollar-short paid media are pushing "Green Living" and "What We Can Do to Fight Global Warming" every 10 minutes like I witnessed last week, then the gig is up.
We are so doomed.
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Wild Bill
climber
Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 23, 2007 - 01:31pm PT
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"perhaps our efforts would be better spent not rebuilding New Orleans and transitioning folks out of coastal areas that will be under water in a few generations"
You are a reactionary fool who hates America! Why, we built that lovely city practically under water, and we'll do it again.
Pfffffft - the Army Corps of Engineers, TO THE RESCUE!
What's next, Karl - shoring up Glacier Point to stop the bombing at Curry Village?!
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Apr 23, 2007 - 01:36pm PT
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Just to throw some brisket fat on the fire...it is very hard to have a serious discussion on this topic with someone who has little to no science background, especially when he/she has made their mind up already.
Ain't that the truth!
So, I'm sitting here right now with my April 7 issue of Science (just got around to reading it) and flipping between that and its AAAS/Science online counterpart, www.sciencexpress.org. Here's the real leading edge of science, folks! So what did y'all think about the spooky (or should be, especially for those who care about southwestern North America) new results just presented by Seager et al. -- "Model Projections of an Imminent Transition to a More Arid Climate in Southwestern North America"?
How anthropogenic climate change will impact hydroclimate in the arid regions of Southwestern North America has implications for the allocation of water resources and the course of regional development. Here we show that there is a broad consensus amongst climate models that this region will dry significantly in the 21st century and that the transition to a more arid climate should already be underway. If these models are correct, the levels of aridity of the recent multiyear drought, or the Dust Bowl and 1950s droughts, will, within the coming years to decades, become the new climatology of the American Southwest.
http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/1139601v2
Guess they don't think that moving up your beach chair will be "all that it means"?
Or how about this paper on the same page, by Rahmstorf et al. -- "Recent Climate Observations Compared to Projections"?
We present recent observed climate trends for carbon dioxide concentration, global-mean air temperature and sea level, and we compare these trends to previous model projections as summarised in the 2001 assessment report of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change. The IPCC scenarios and projections start in the year 1990, which is also the base year of the Kyoto protocol in which almost all industrialised nations have committed to binding reductions of their greenhouse gas emissions. The data available for the period since 1990 raise concerns that the climate system, in particular sea level, may be responding more quickly to climate change than our current generation of models indicates.
http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/1136843v1
Note that Rahmstorf is one of the leading climate scientists, and here he and his colleagues are critiquing the IPCC report. That should be worth an op-ed in the Wall Street Journal, no? Well, no, it's a critique going the wrong direction.
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Moof
Trad climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon
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Apr 23, 2007 - 01:44pm PT
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Why does chicken little keep coming to mind?
Our herd is oversized and sick. We are stripping our graising lands bare. We need a predator.
I fear we will end up putting all our effort into C02 reduction, but ignore:
-Bulldozing of the rain forests, and much other vital wilderness
-Dramatic effects of non-native plants and animals (again, predatation and competition upset)
-Paving over of huge swaths of land (Pheonix night time temps are up about 15-20F due to the heat holding of all the pavement)
-General drop in quality of life as big TV's and comfy couches top the priority list over social interaction
Rome burns, and we pat ourselves on the back for buying carbon credits.
A good war that thinned the herd might help. Maybe a good plague? How about Carousel? Mandatory vasectomies after your second or third child? How about a child tax instead of a tax credit (pay for the societal burdens you create)?
If our society had 1/10th the population, each person could pollute, and consume 3x what they do today and we'd still be 3x better off than we are today (unless your in that 90% that vanished).
The history channel had a nice spot about the black plague. One interested result was that with a thinned population the survivors quality of life dramatically improved. Italy for example was overfarming it's lands, and the dramatic population drop allowed luxury crops like grapes and apples to be planted. The ruling elite lost power, since that power was control over the previously very limited resource of land. I saw some intersted paralells and possibilities.
Americans are very used to incentive based systems, and we're pretty good at perverting them. The simplest solution to our C02 quandry is to put a large carbon tax on all oil, natural gas, coal, etc. If gas was driven up to $10/gal, we'd see electric cars that worked very quickly. We'd see people ride their bikes to work. Buying a house over an hours drive away from work would quickly become less practical. McMansions would go the way of the Arch Deluxe and the McDLT. The federal deficit would also quickly vanish. Of course life would really kind of suck as we adjusted (many businesses and households would no longer be viable).
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Wild Bill
climber
Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 23, 2007 - 01:47pm PT
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Fat Cat is back, and he's pissed!
Don't you people have some work to do?! Forget about this global warming garbage - Who voted for Sunjaya? I heard he was great! Tell us about your vacation plans? Ooooh, who cried with me over the Virginia Tech shootings? Koreans - watch out for them! Um, what else . . . ?
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Apr 23, 2007 - 01:51pm PT
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I fear we will end up putting all our effort into C02 reduction, but ignore:
You're quite right that there are other big problems. Although most people can't even understand CO2 (watch this website!).
Since I'm citing Science today, I'll just mention that scientists are well aware that even regarding climate change, CO2 ain't the whole story. As one of many examples, see Shine & Sturges, "CO2 Is Not the Only Gas" in the March 30 issue.
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L
climber
NoName City and It Don't Look Pretty
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Apr 23, 2007 - 02:03pm PT
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Yes Chiloe--None of us here have a science background nor can any of us read Scientific American nor can we think empirically, can we? And all those stupid climatologists who say Global Warming is real probably don't even have real diplomas, huh?
Nope, the TRUE test of a scientific mind is some female who posts pictures of clowns after every post she doesn't agree with and cannot come up with a rational rebuttal for. Yep, that's pure intellect at work there.
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Moof
Trad climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon
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Apr 23, 2007 - 02:11pm PT
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One only has to look at our food intake over the history I can remember to see how good science gets dissected, perverted, and marketed. Usually we've ended up worse than when we started, but we've patted ourselves ont he back the whole way. The present CO2 tizzy has many of the same earmarks.
I'm sure the same folks who came up with a lot of that Y2K survival crap are honing their marketing plans to sell us global warming shelters, and global warming food stuffs.
My idea is to start selling polished stainless steel mirrors to mount on your house and car to deflect the suns dangerous thermal waves. I'll follow that with foil baseball caps, and copper bracelets that make you feel cooler and reduce your body's natural carbon emissions.
If I make enough off the other ideas I'll open a carbon repository where people can pay me big bucks to bury plastic and wood products to entomb the dangerous carbon bearing objects safe from the atmosphere for generations to come. If the political winds shift (as they usually do after 5-10 years) I can always rename it as a landfill and keep raking in the dough.
One entertaining sidenote was witht he reduction of lead and other heavy metals. When the dealine came with RoHS comanies dumped all their old stock into the landfills, at great cost to you, and put much of the heavy metals directly in the ground without ever even getting use out of them. I expect we'll see similar bohunkary with CO2 emissions. It'll be fun when the first carbon credit scams come to light.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Apr 23, 2007 - 03:15pm PT
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L:
Yes Chiloe--None of us here have a science background nor can any of us read Scientific American nor can we think empirically, can we? And all those stupid climatologists who say Global Warming is real probably don't even have real diplomas, huh?
Heh, I'm too easily trolled on this topic, gotta chill out. Back to work unless somebody starts another thread about antique climbing fashions.
I might actually go climbing later this week, that'd be cool too.
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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Apr 23, 2007 - 03:24pm PT
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I gotta go with Rove on this one.
As long as Sheryl Crow recomends wiping our asses with only one square of toilet paper, I don't want her touching me either.
"Crow has suggested using "only one square per restroom visit, except, of course, on those pesky occasions where two to three could be required"."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/6583067.stm
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Apr 23, 2007 - 03:33pm PT
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Chaz, I read that too. Crazy airhead....one, single piece of TP? What an airhead!
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Wild Bill
climber
Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 23, 2007 - 03:39pm PT
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C'mon, guys - maybe Sheryl's just dehydrated.
On some visits, I don't use ANY squares. Is that too much information?
Reminds me of the story one of my partners told me. He and his buddy are gearing up to do their first wall. Buddy's girlfriend wants soooooooooooooo badly to be helpful, and keeps bugging them to be permitted to help.
So they hand her some paper lunch sacks (pre-tube days), a roll of TP, and explain how the whole process works. So her task: put some TP in each sack.
They get up on the wall, and it finally comes time to use a sack. But there's only three squares of TP in it. They check the others - same thing.
Upon arrival home, the topic comes up in conversation with GF, and the words "WFT" are uttered. Her explanation - "I didn't want you guys to think that I use a lot of TP or have a messy time with it - that would be embarrassing."
There's a lesson in this story somewhere, just dying to get out.
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