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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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No reason the woo crew shouldn't have a dedicated panpsychism thread - have at it.
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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However no significant level of consensus of basic understanding seems to have been reached on those threads and many of the sub-discussions seem to be running in circles for some 20,000 postings. Reality designed by a committee! My personal opinion as to why is that the subject is being approached backwards...hence this thread to look at it from the other direction...not about the five senses or the brain or the mind, but about consciousness and levels of awareness and possible implications to be learned ...
I don't think it was the purpose of the threads you referenced -- stated or implied-- to arrive at some sort of utilitarian "consensus" as regards consciousness,or any other subject. Posters do not convene at such threads in order to solve the unsolvable riddles of the mind-- for the rest of us to then assess and hold up to the grail of "basic understanding."
Therefore, the founding premise of your own thread purpose appears to be without much of a logical foundation; appearing to be an artificial premise, wholly unnecessary.
But Go for it.
Whatever rings your bell.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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To be clear; my bias is towards avoiding the false dichotomy of mind/matter.
The mind is what the brain does. So the 'materialism' vs. 'awareness' as substantively different things doesn't need a specific type of label as long as we understand collectively in dialogue that mind and matter are not materially different things. or in the language of collective-conscious approach, they are not immaterially different objects within thought.
The harder part is to talk about causality in either language game and whether one wants to be amenable to proof via some type of inter-subjectivity or Nagelian objectivity.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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I did a search for "Nagelian Objectivity."
The most promising result:
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/scientific-objectivity/
To simplify,
As young (High School) investigators we were told by my collaborator's father that we should not refer to ourselves in writing up our results. You would write, "It was found that...," rather than, "We found that..."
This was, and may still be, the convention.
Fortunately, not all scientists are so timid, though it was the right approach for us.
A climbing partner of mine in Chicago, a particle physicist at the time, told me that when Steven Weinberg gave talks about his area of research, he would simply say, "I found that..," or "I proved that..."
I would trust Weinberg over Nagel. I find Nagel to be a nit-picker and superficial, and Weinberg to be far-sighted and real.
Scientific objectivity is a convention. Don't put too much weight on it.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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I'm curious about the "levels of awareness". Is there a list?
"Someone is interfering with you in particular, so that makes it your show. I know who and you also know who."
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WBraun
climber
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The gross materialist can't figure this sh!t out because they're way too busy playing scientist.
The knowledge of consciousness IS far above the gross materialist's consciousness.
The gross materialists all fail from the very start with their fixed up dead materialistic consciousness ......
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 1, 2018 - 08:36pm PT
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i like the Seeking Understanding drawings ... interesting perspectives ...
it seems to be not uncommon for someone like you who is ready for it, to be pushed into seeing what is often called an enlightened view of reality
that's true of me also in perhaps a rather different way ... i was a die hard materialist scientist pushing way to hard as a rock climber and had so many near death instances that it eventually got through my hard head to see there was definitely something keeping me alive besides athletic skill and dumb luck
that set me off on a path of learning that was entirely unlikely considering my early upbringing and inclinations
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 1, 2018 - 08:49pm PT
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Jogill - Infinite awareness seems to intersect with John Long's open awareness experience that he has discussed at length in the WisM thread. He has postulated that his experience is not describable in physical terms:
"That is, awareness and consciousness are fundamentally unlike other "things" that physics and biology are designed to explain."
I agree with most of what John Long has to say ... He has taken on the unenviable task of trying to rationally and logically enlighten very intelligent scientists who are firmly fixed in views of the materialistic matrix. John has a tremendous command of the language and has been doing a superb job of making up for the shortcomings of the language to describe the nature of some of this. I am trying here to take on the much easier task of having a discussion among people who already have some level of experience and understanding in this domain ... not needing to be convinced, but wishing to learn more and expand understanding
I started this thread not out of any desire to steal the fire from John's thread, but because I'd like to transcend the endless scientific discussions regarding body/brain/mind and step into discussions regarding the nature of the levels of infinite awareness. I suspected not being the only person in this forum interested in such, and so far already that is proving to be the case on this thread.
I am inviting non-participation by those who are convinced that everything is explainable as aspects of the material universe. Those dimensions to the discussions are very interesting, but not appropriate to this thread.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 1, 2018 - 09:25pm PT
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As one explores consciousness and experiences different levels and modes of awareness there usually is that moment of realization that seems profound. It is a feeling, a moment of awareness that can be had by any number of methods, understandings or paths. Along with that feeling, depending on how deeply one is effected, often there is a desire to share that feeling by communicating it to others. At this point things get screwy. Personality enters the picture. Everyone wants to win the ever increasingly popular game of "I look good on the internet" and all bets are off. Value judgements become the name of the game as that is how it is played in the Matrix.
Surely it is fine wanting to share moments of profound realization. Realize that the materialistic matrix includes a multitude of elements to keep us entrained within it and reinforce the ego ... not attempting here to list them all, but including such things as encapsulation, insulation, isolation, living other than in the now, unawareness, ignorance envy, want, lack of vision
All these sorts of things tend to dissipate the more a person envisions we are all part of the force that moves in all things, we are all brothers and sisters, we are all one ... each of us a viewpoint of the one, here to have experiences
If you are worried about what other people think of you, then you are giving away your power to them, giving them power over you and your life and decision making ... power you should be reserving for yourself.
Realize you don't need to prove anything to anyone ... you can share with others as you make agreements to do so ... your only real duty is to live according to your own best judgement
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 1, 2018 - 09:36pm PT
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I don't think it was the purpose of the threads you referenced -- stated or implied-- to arrive at some sort of utilitarian "consensus" as regards consciousness,or any other subject. Posters do not convene at such threads in order to solve the unsolvable riddles of the mind-- for the rest of us to then assess and hold up to the grail of "basic understanding."
There does seem to me to be a constant dialog regarding how consciousness and awareness and intelligence arise within the universe. I appreciate that ongoing discussion and find it fascinating, not necessarily for the same reasons as others
This thread is designed to set aside that whole discussion and go with the assumption that conscious awareness is the basic source of the material universe. Whether or not you agree with that perspective, the other threads clearly consider consciousness to arise from the material universe, and this thread takes the opposite tack of considering the material universe arises as a product of infinite awareness.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 1, 2018 - 09:55pm PT
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The mind is what the brain does. So the 'materialism' vs. 'awareness' as substantively different things doesn't need a specific type of label as long as we understand collectively in dialogue that mind and matter are not materially different things. or in the language of collective-conscious approach, they are not immaterially different objects within thought.
Yes, I agree with you, The brain is clearly an important tool of the mind. And mind and matter are not materially different things. That is an interesting and worthwhile component of the discussions to have on the other thread.
This thread is not about body/brain/mind systems. It is about levels of awareness independent of those.
If you have not accepted the concept of consciousness external from a material body and brain, then this thread should just be tagged as irrelevant woo woo, and so you can in all good conscience ignore it and rejoin the other discussion threads
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 1, 2018 - 10:06pm PT
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I'm curious about the "levels of awareness". Is there a list?
Yes
It's a little bit like measuring a distance across a space ... different cultures have used different measuring sticks to measure the same or similar space ... their understandings do tend to line up with each other because they are looking at similar aspects of reality ...
If someone isn't seeing what we are looking at, then talking about layers or bands or metrics is irrelevant and confusing ...
"Someone is interfering with you in particular, so that makes it your show. I know who and you also know who."
Do you? Then you are way ahead of the crowd. But you are not alone.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 1, 2018 - 10:24pm PT
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It sounds to me like you are talking
about Noetic Science, Tom.
There's something we are familiar with at NASA JSC Building 4 in the Astronaut Office called, 'The Blue Marble Effect'. And Edgar Mitchell definitely got it.
This transcendental effect happens when you look out of the spacecraft window and see the entire Earth of a size you can block by holding up your thumb. However there's the entirety of the human race and all our history as just a pale blue dot.
And your sense of self and self-awareness gets slammed by your powerful spiritual connections to your loved ones and to everyone else on that little blue marble.
And then you look around for any alternatives or backup possibilities and it's hard to retreat to a myopic viewpoint about life after that.
There are other aspects as well such as the nature of your escorts.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 1, 2018 - 10:29pm PT
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The gross materialist can't figure this sh!t out because they're way too busy playing scientist.
The knowledge of consciousness IS far above the gross materialist's consciousness.
The gross materialists all fail from the very start with their fixed up dead materialistic consciousness ......
Take it easy, Werner, on this thread you are among friends trying to learn more about what you already understand ... LOL
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Nick Danger
Ice climber
Arvada, CO
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Tom,
I very much appreciate what you are doing with this thread. It takes me back to a time when I focused personal energy on just this sort of quest. Then I got lazy or otherwise distracted by earthly things, family, ect. For my personal journey those distractions actually had important lessons to convey to me. I find the timing of your thread entirely wonderful, and many of your metaphors extremely useful. Not sure I have a great deal to add to this discussion, but am an eager reader of this thread. I very much appreciate what you are doing and talking about here.
Thank you
Cheers
Nick (Bob)
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 2, 2018 - 10:13am PT
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The most powerful demon is the uncontrolled logical mind.
You must choose one of three methods to deal with it:
1. fight it (sometimes)
2. confront it (sometimes)
3. accept it passively (80% of the time)
So it seems that many people would like to escape from the constant chatter going on in their uncontrolled minds and they turn to meditation as a possible solution.
Other common 'solutions' to distract the mental demon include booz, drugs, TV, sports entertainment, arts and crafts, pets, nature walks, house cleaning, reading, social contributions, church, religious or occult practices, chanting, wood cutting, personal grooming, board games, etc
Rock climbing is the popular one (and a good one) in this crowd. Rock climbing has been my first personal research laboratory for this.
Each of these has their advantages and disadvantages ... some are constructive and helpful to self and others or just harmlessly enjoyable ... some can be destructive to self and others ... and some work better than others so far as encouraging learning to control the mind.
Meditation is a relatively mild and relatively universal approach, but most people attempt it without the sort of training or discipline which is known among some of the ancient eastern practices. And novices quickly come face to face to a whole series of challenging distractions.
So commonly people use recordings of music or spoken guidance from knowledgeable practitioners as a way to focus attention away from the mental chatter. I used to play classical music in my head while rock climbing, as I was a professional violinist ... but it's better to be able to focus your full energy and attention on the climb without distractions.
So how to quiet the logical mind and bring up the power of the spiritual mind? The deeper you can get into Inner Vision, the more effective you can be. Empowered Belief (that it will happen) is the most powerful technique for accomplishing anything.
So to start out, there are four basic elements for effective meditation, each worthy of some discussion:
1. Relaxed Mind and Body
2. Comfortable position
3. Passive attitude ... you meet disturbances passively
4. A focal point of attention for the mind
Pure Mind is the Spiritual Mind ... the more quiet, the more powerful
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 2, 2018 - 10:41am PT
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Moose, we are in the same boat.
Realizing when you don't know and wanting to know is basic to all advancement in knowledge. At the point you decide that you know all about it ... well that's the point at which the learning stops.
I've just devoted a little bit more research to the subject of this thread and am interested in sharing and learning more
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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How many wizards does it take to complete an Oz? Who needs another wizard? Oz is inside of you. You don't need a wizard to find it. If you do, you won't. Call it what you want, but once you call it something it becomes that something in your mind and you are trying to limit the limitless.
Even if someone were to ask me, " what's it all about, Alfie?" I would hesitate to answer,not because I care what they think about me but I would rather they had the experience of discovery and then,maybe, we could share something.
Until that time, I choose to let the mystery unfold for the individual as it may. Let the light shine as it is for each person that would seek that light. There are no shortcuts or manuals of instruction.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 2, 2018 - 11:19am PT
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Thank you for the words of encouragement and please add your personal experiences.
I learned early in my passion for climbing about reaching a point of being thrashed and trembling with weakness. I learned that if your thoughts were oh how tired and weak I am ... that was it for that particular attempt.
Then I learned that if I conjured up thoughts about how I am strong and energized and let's do this ... and gosh, it goes! ...
Then Frank Sacherer and I met and started talking about such things and I refined this technique. This is the time period when we were pushing beyond 5.9 into the realm of 5.10. So I would climb to a point of encountering high resistance, mentally rehearse the move, bond mentally to the rock, breath deeply and mentally energize the body, focus on the move, and launch into the motion with no holding back. Frank was conflicted about believing in such stuff, but it worked well enough that I was able to push through at several critical points when he was stymied. It's clear he later mastered the technique. He would do it by working himself up into an emotional rage at himself ... not the best approach and a waste of a lot of energy. In that time period 5.10 was the ceiling on our ability. It's clear that younger generations of climbers seem to take this energized focus as normal technique and 5.10 hardly represents any barrier to ability.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 2, 2018 - 11:40am PT
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Wayno, it seems we are living in Oz aka The Matrix, and there is much more funding and technology devoted to this than the public has any glimmer about.
And actually there are government funded manuals on how to do some of this stuff and there has been a tremendous amount of well funded dark programs research in this general area, particularly on how to constrain and limit human abilities ... aka 'non-lethal weapons research'. Our society is thoroughly permeated with technology to keep us constrained. You could spend a lifetime just trying to catch up with a few of these guys .. such as Hal Putoff and Ingo Swann
I would rather keep it light and not recommend these rather dark approaches, but you can see one such manual at:
http://www.remoteviewed.com/files/CRV%20manual%20full.pdf
Coordinate Remote Viewing Training Manual - Stanford Research Institute
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