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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
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Dec 17, 2017 - 09:16am PT
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Good one Karodrinker...Lower Rock Creek trail gets lots of multi-use pedestrian traffic...I've ridden it a few times , run it , and hiked it...It's nerve-wracking hiking it due to blind corners and waiting to get creamed by downhill jack-asses thinking they're at Disneyland..Build more Mt. Bike trails but keep em out of the wilderness...And while you're at it keep the destructive mules and horesees out..
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hooblie
climber
from out where the anecdotes roam
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Dec 17, 2017 - 09:36am PT
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a few years ago ...
"one of our own" and a buddy came through here
on a a fast and light traverse of the arizona trail (AZT)
from the mexican border to utah.
by "through here," it's not that the AZT isn't a few miles away ...
they had to divert for a section due to adverse conditions that had them pushing and
peeling jelly rolls of mud from the tires, frames and chains since wheels had jammed.
after much slithering and dragging ... sticks were employed ... repeatedly.
"here" was the site of the nearest pressured water hose, but that's not the story:
instead of panniers they were sporting watches, and the schedule demanded an early arrival at the GC Village Post Office
where normal shoes they had mailed to themselves c/o general delivery awaited, along with a pair of homemade strappy lash-ups that
facilitated carrying frames and wheels on their back for a forced Rim to Rim march sans camp ... rather, back up to 8k for a bagless bivi.
here's the clincher: the rangers made it clear that ... if a tire so much as touched the trail ... the bikes would be confiscated!
brilliant. #luv ya Gov.
and hats off wildone
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Lituya
Mountain climber
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Dec 17, 2017 - 11:18am PT
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AT skis are mechanized. And they blow past those snowshoers at blinding speed.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Dec 17, 2017 - 11:26am PT
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They allow bikes on some trails, really fire roads, here at Wilder Ranch in Santa Cruz and some areas look like a damn motocross especially in the winter. Plus bikes go everywhere, after all its more fun on narrow trails than on designated fire roads. if you're a walker better watch your ass because they come tearing around corners with little warning. Don't go up there on weekends any more.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Dec 17, 2017 - 11:30am PT
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Equating a mtb to power drilling is a stretch.
I didn't mean to compare a mountain bike to a bolt, per say. Rather how different user groups see their own interests. But the comparison, bolt to bike, does actually have some merit. Which has more impact: bikers in the back country, their attendant trail damage, and the damage from off trail riding (which will be done,) or a fixed anchor, even a bolted line up a rock?
Of course there are many examples of trails used by mountain bikers and hikers and climbers. For example the trail out to the Needles, although the traffic is very light. I've only seen a few bikers on that trail in many years of climbing there, and they were climbers themselves.
So it looks to me like locally made decisions re bikes on trails seem to work out in most cases.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Dec 17, 2017 - 11:34am PT
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In true wilderness areas I’m anti-bike. I go to the wilderness for peace and quiet, not to hear wooting and hollering and being run over. In true wilderness can you imagine how many bikers would come a cropper by whipping around a corner into a grizz or moose? LOL
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
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Dec 17, 2017 - 11:57am PT
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I agree with Dingus,however if the extractors get there before bikes I have issues.
It is hard enough back here to get to good climbing ,in the Dacks they allow snow machines in winter. Bikes would ease a lot of approaches.
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Radish
Trad climber
SeKi, California
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Dec 17, 2017 - 12:02pm PT
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I like the idea of figuring it out locally too Kris. And I like the idea of keeping it at bay at least..nothing over 6000' say. Specifying road or trail too. There are tons of roads and trail below 6k that doesnt see anyone around here except MJ growers.Lots of area that would keep bikers busy. I don't like the idea of riding on the High Sierra Trail. If this all happens....and everyday is a surprise.
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Dec 17, 2017 - 12:06pm PT
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This would be a good thing. I never felt the writers of the Wilderness Act intended for human powered transport to be banned when they used the verbiage, “mechanical transport”. Land managers have also used this clause to prohibit hang gliders in wilderness (but not paragliders), due the the mechanical linkage of the steering triangle.
Here is the excerpt from the 1964 Wilderness Act:
PROHIBITION OF CERTAIN USES
(c) Except as specifically provided for in this Act, and subject to existing private rights, there shall be no commercial enterprise and no permanent road within any wilderness area designated by this Act and except as necessary to meet minimum requirements for the administration of the area for the purpose of this Act (including measures required in emergencies involving the health and safety of persons within the area), there shall be no temporary road, no use of motor vehicles, motorized equipment or motorboats, no landing of aircraft, no other form of mechanical transport, and no structure or installation within any such area.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Dec 17, 2017 - 12:11pm PT
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Several issues here.
First, there is a real incompatibility between bikes and other uses. It has to do with the speed of bikes, particularly downhill. I've seen many collisions with hikers. With stock, it scares them, and they go wild, bucking, etc. Very dangerous.
Second, bikes tear up trails in ways that hikers and stock do not. I've done trail maintenance on bike-used trails, and was astonished at the damage that had to be repaired.
Third, bikers like to alter the trail to put in jumps, etc.
For these reasons, Wilderness Managers are virtually unanimous in their opposition to this access, and have fought it administratively for years.
But most important, the real reason for this bill is that the GOP thinks of it as an opportunity to split the outdoor community, and have them waste their time, money, and energy on this, rather than on things that are more important to them. Think about it: is it more important to Paul Ryan that he have access to wilderness trails to bike upon, or to sell off public lands to supporters?
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Dec 17, 2017 - 12:12pm PT
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I'm definitely for a case by case allowance for mt bikers. As said up thread, the wilderness designation has been used recently to take away access, which I'm pretty sure was not the intent. And almost certainly the horse packers create more mess than do mt bikers.
I'm not too concerned about the gonzo enduro guys. I agree that it's not pleasant to hike around them, but most of them won't venture very far into wilderness or over lots of hills. And there will always be plenty of trails that are simply too rugged to be worth biking.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Dec 17, 2017 - 12:28pm PT
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Mike, my definition of true wilderness is where yer not the top of the food chain.
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hooblie
climber
from out where the anecdotes roam
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Dec 17, 2017 - 12:31pm PT
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ya, and that's anywhere with LEO
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Gene
climber
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Dec 17, 2017 - 12:45pm PT
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Bicycles no!
Unicycles yes!
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
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Dec 17, 2017 - 01:00pm PT
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the wilderness designation has been used recently to take away access, which I'm pretty sure was not the intent
The wilderness designation as I understand it was to preserve what little of it we have left in this country, not to give access.
Already in small accessible wilderness areas such as the Snowmass Wilderness Area near Aspen, Colorado, there is more than enough usage just from hikers. Since these are federal lands, I doubt that local control is possible.
As for attempted local control near wilderness areas, many of us who own property near wilderness areas have tried for years, to preserve the lack of development of the area. However, all it takes is ATV owners to discover nearby access roads, usually under ownership of the Forest Service, and the tranquility of the place is gone. The perimeters of these areas are already encroached on. Let's try to preserve the actual wilderness.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Dec 17, 2017 - 02:12pm PT
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The Wilderness Act as written in 1964 did not exclude bicycles. It was only later in 1977 that they were excluded. There are quotes from both Frank Church, one of the main congressional sponsors and President Johnson indicating that is was their intent that bikes be allowed when the law was originally passed.
From 80-83 bikes were allowed on a limited basis based on the decisions of local Federal land managers. That's what is being considered now. Along with wheelchairs and wheelbarrows for trail maintenance. Not ATVs, and not even e-Bikes.
The Boulder White Cloud are in Idaho had a fairly long tradition of mt bikers on the trails. Some of the trails were built by mt bikers, and many were maintained by them. If there were huge berms and jumps, I never saw them. It is far from any major population area and was not on any list I ever saw as a destination for fully armored downhill bikers. And yet it was changed to wilderness and bikes were banned back in 2015.
I'm not a fan of some of the GOP sponsors of this bill. But it is crafted in pretty limited ways to prevent the slippery slope effect.
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Lassitude 33
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Dec 17, 2017 - 03:30pm PT
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This should not be a pure Yes or No proposition. Expansion of some Wilderness designations (to preserve and protect from intrusive road development) have had the unintended consequence of outlawing long standing MTB use. This has ended up making enemies of users that should be natural allies in the defense of public lands and preservation.
Some areas would not be appropriate to open up to MTB use, others, there is no reason to legitimately deny access.
Remote areas with difficult and considerable uphill terrain are natural defenses to the stereotypical "downhill" rider. And, yes, study after study has shown that trail damage from horses (not even talking pack animals) is many times more destructive than rubber tires.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Dec 17, 2017 - 03:46pm PT
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Dec 17, 2017 - 05:10pm PT
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Remote areas with difficult and considerable uphill terrain are natural defenses to the stereotypical "downhill" rider. And, yes, study after study has shown that trail damage from horses (not even talking pack animals) is many times more destructive than rubber tires.
Please give citations for your assertions?
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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Dec 17, 2017 - 06:02pm PT
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so if I skid on a dirt road thag is sorta like a, y'know, protest, riggt?
I mean how much can cantilevered brakes really do to a deertrail anyway? ;-)
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