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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Oct 20, 2017 - 08:53pm PT
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mikegrai said:
I think we sometimes are naively uncritical of the climbing enterprise.
Rationalizing and denial are powerful coping mechanisms - I expect they will be greatly in evidence in many of the responses to this thread.
^Certainly some truth in this. However, what I think is important, is that each individual try not to kid themselves, and decide what risk level they are comfortable with, and balance that with whatever individual responsibility is felt toward others, such as family and loved ones.
Alpinism, for example (and Hayden Kennedy gave voice to this), big mountains, skiing wild snow, especially in the Intermountain region, are seriously more risky pursuits than pure rockclimbing, especially when that rockclimbing is performed artfully, and within one's personal envelope of competence.
I've done a lot more of the latter in that list, and so have most of my close friends. Yes, in an actuarial sense, this is still certainly more risky than staying on the ground, but, that said, most of my friends haven't and aren't dying while rockclimbing. (I'm at that age where the leaves start falling from the tree more rapidly. I've got one in hospice right now. Just found out tonight).
And after you make that internal choice, all that's left to do is live as fully as you can with what time you have, and in doing so, you have an external choice to grapple with, as stated below, by Cat:
cat t. said:
but I'm left with the feeling that the biggest risk of all is loving other people, given the inevitability of loss. That, at least, is a risk that seems worth taking over and over, even in the face of tragedy."...
Best to you, Wendy,
Roy
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Oct 21, 2017 - 01:22am PT
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Wendy wrote:
I guess I’ll go back to reading Supertaco, and climbing literature, and climbing magazines, and hope that these things are enough to heal my heart, which feels especially sad right now. Because what else can we do but share our sadness, explore these concepts, and grieve together? Our tribe is beautiful. Our tribe is powerful. But once again, our tribe is wounded.
It is similar to what we humans all do following tragic death, no matter the tribe.
Grieving is not meant to continue past a certain point or it becomes pointless and showy and absurd.
I give you the supreme example, to my mind: Queen Victoria I and her attachment to Prince Albert.
Thank you for sharing and your honesty with us and yourself, Wendy.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Oct 21, 2017 - 05:33am PT
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Dalva
A novel by Jim Harrison
Page 51
A passage from a letter written to Dalva by her uncle, regarding long walks, solo, in potentially dangerous territory:
I began walking at your age just because the natural world seemed to absorb the poison in me. I'd say the acceptable level of risk entertained by each of us is clearly a highly personal matter, and all depends on the level of poison in need of extraction.
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DanaB
climber
CT
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Oct 21, 2017 - 07:09am PT
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Written in a previous post, my paraphrasing:
//Climbing is definitely worth the risk.
What is not worth the risk is dying from a stupid climbing accident.//
Consider that.
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Stewart Johnson
Mountain climber
lake forest
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Oct 21, 2017 - 07:16am PT
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Live for the moment.
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Oct 21, 2017 - 08:11am PT
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@Tami:
I liked what you said, and it's interesting that worked to keep the mountain sports out of your kids' lives. But this statement made me jump:
One of my deepest wishes is to outlive them.
Yeesh! Meditate a little on what that could possibly mean. The Kennedys outlived their son, yes?
So glad you're around to chime in here. We've all had those close calls. Check your knots, folks, and talk to your belayers!
BAd
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Oct 21, 2017 - 09:43am PT
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Ho man,
He's not the only one with reading comprehension!
I just figured, that Tami, she's got some salt!
 BTW, Tams, just sent an e-mail to your telus addy, gotta have me some of them books from your secret stash.
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Bushman
climber
The state of quantum flux
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Oct 21, 2017 - 10:33am PT
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Tami I saw it too but figured you'd straighten it out once someone pointed it out...
Funny, not funny, simultaneously...
Regarding the thread, on the grief of losing our friends/loved ones to climbing; it never completely goes away, but wanes as the years go by. Not the bottle or the flame will long dampen it. Best to climb back on the horse for as long as you have passion to ride.
In the interim, go biking or hiking.
-Tim
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kaholatingtong
Trad climber
The real McCoy from the inside of my van.
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Oct 21, 2017 - 10:51am PT
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I like that quote, Starbuster. ( another typo, but I liked this one so I am just gonna leave it)
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Oct 21, 2017 - 11:00am PT
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Starbuster!
Might I borrow that? Right up there with Le Tarbusier.
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kaholatingtong
Trad climber
The real McCoy from the inside of my van.
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Oct 21, 2017 - 03:06pm PT
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But, ofcourse!
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 22, 2017 - 04:54am PT
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"Life IS suffering." the Buddha ( which one?)
We're in it. Find something that makes it count, for you. For many of us, climbing is one of those things.
I'm with Weinberg! Thanks Ed
Star buster, a recent shot of Roy at the crags
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Bldrjac
Ice climber
Boulder
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Oct 22, 2017 - 10:40am PT
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Wendy,
My name is Pam Roberts....I'm Jack Roberts' widow. I ruminate on this topic all the time. A few mentioned that "there is no grief." Believe me, there is a TON of grief!!! But I have learned that grief is complicated, and not 100% negative. I have learned more through grief than at any other time in my life. I feel more appreciative of life. I feel love more deeply, and see beauty in nearly everything. I miss Jack more than I believed would have been possible...an interesting lesson in and of itself. So much loss, and yet....I still climb. Not like I did before...in part, because at 57, there are other things I also enjoy doing that aren't quite so hard on my body. But that being said, I'm trying to plan a climbing trip to Mexico in January. So very many of my best memories are tied up in climbing (no pun intended!). In the end, I would say that climbing has enriched my life like no other activity, despite the loss. But it's complicated. I wish I had an answer. I dreamt about him the other night. He arrived, and told me he missed me terribly, and was very sorry. While he was holding me, he also said he had to leave again....he would be gone for 4 months to go off and try to do a new route on Changabang. I saw another one of his best friends in the background, who is also dead. Is there climbing perhaps in the afterlife, if there even is one? Maybe I'll dream about him again in February, and know that he kept his word to come back in 4 months! In the meantime, it's a beautiful fall day, and it's time for a bike ride, and then happy hour with a friend. She no longer climbs, after a climbing accident in which she broke 23 bones, but lived. It's good to be alive, that much I know, and it is good to have loved deeply, and been loved deeply as well. "Life is either a daring adventure, or it is nothing." Did't Helen Keller say that? best, Pam
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Oct 22, 2017 - 02:37pm PT
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This is a valuable thread. Pam's remarks are so personal, but deeply meaningful. Thankyou.
For me, the collective grief of being a climber is only a part of the collective grief of being human. Climbers are a fairly close and friendly bunch, we tend to care for our tribe (as we call it.) When one of us dies or is killed we grieve the loss of someone special. We don't see very many climbers dying due to evil deeds.
So a is climber killed, and the grieving comes naturally. But for me anyway, it is a clean pain. Intense of course, but not mired by an act of evil. It's not the same as grieving the loss of a loved one by an act of violence, where grief and hate for the perpetrator can co-mingle into an awful state of mind. Not many have the strength to forgive, a way out of that.
Sometimes I just sit and grieve for the state of humanity. I lose touch with all that’s good, and get overwhelmed by the scope of the evil which we are capable of. Then something touches me and I remember that there’s a lot of good out there. And beauty. As often as not these messages come from the climbing community. Really, we’re a pretty lucky bunch.
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Wen
Trad climber
Bend, OR
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 22, 2017 - 03:17pm PT
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Oh Pam, Jack's loss was another one that hit me deep in the heart. Again I didn't know him, but his loss was so palpable for me at the time, and anytime I see your name pop up I read what you have to say. Thank you for continuing to stick around so I can learn from you.
I think the theme that's rising for me in all this is that I feel for the people left behind. I'm sad for them, and I fear being one of them, and yet reading your words (and those of so many others who have joined this and other conversations) somehow makes me feel better. I can't imagine the sadness, and yet I can. I'm scared of it, and yet I'm not.
I realized yesterday that I will never give up climbing. My son was grinning ear to ear as he got a climb in the gym that he worked hard for, and it just hit me that I'll always climb, taking the risk of being sad in the future for the concrete enjoyment of happiness and love in the present. There's no point in living in fear, I agree with those who have said that.
Climbers are such a unique tribe, I do feel this sport is different from the others I enjoy. I can honestly say I've never met a climber that didn't make me think.
Thanks again all.
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okay, whatever
climber
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Oct 22, 2017 - 04:01pm PT
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Pam,
I remember Jack, who I was acquainted with via Ray and Paula, and their house at 9th and Cascade. It was back in the mid 1980's (I THINK that's when R & P bought that house... I should remember, since I was part of the moving-in crew), but also definitely for a brief time in 2003-2006. when I lived in Boulder again. Jack always seemed to be on a mission. He reminded me of Mugs Stump, though they had completely different personalities, as I remember them. Anyway, I do understand your loss, and best to you....
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Oct 22, 2017 - 05:14pm PT
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One of the things I like about you Pam is a particular brightness within you that comes through. And I'm not talking only about the fantastic light in your eyes!
...............................................
Though a little severe, I think Hemingway was speaking to climbers and others of a similar ilk when he said:
The only value we have as human beings is the risks we're willing to take. (From a film called Papa: Hemingway in Cuba, he was IIRC, speaking about risks undertaken during his support of arms to Cubans (or maybe, more benignly, about journalist Denne Bart Petitclerc's trepidation when piloting Hemingway's boat). From which of his writings does this quote come? Anyone?)
................................................
Too funny, J Breaux!
I get such a kick out of that picture of the guy with the hat, shades, and water pistol, I'm going to have to rethink my alignment to mikegrai's personal assessment from the first page:
I have come to the conclusion that climbing appeals to a deeply imbedded streak of egocentric narcisssim that exists in my character.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Oct 22, 2017 - 05:44pm PT
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I find great joy, not sadness, in my identity as a climber. I have lost many friends and acquaintances in my 50 years years of alpine climbing and I have mourned their losses. I was close to Hayden, Michael and Jule. Hayden’s tragic death has hit me particularly hard....there is real sadness for me there but there is still joy in being a climber.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 23, 2017 - 03:39am PT
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Climbing is one of the more uplifting parts of my life. I’ve been losing people for the past sixty years, some by total nonsense. The people that go via climbing at least tend to be embracing and affirming life.
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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Oct 23, 2017 - 06:24am PT
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When risk taking becomes a profession, people die.
Hemingway wasn't exactly a wise man. Good author but not a leader
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