Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
the appendices for the MRP have a bit more information regarding the various perceived needs and alternatives,
http://www.nps.gov/yose/learn/management/upload/mrp-deis-ada-appendices-web.pdf
On Appendix A we find under Yosemite Valley Transportation, GMP=General Management Plan, CSP=Concessions Service Plan [?], this contrasts the previous MRP to the current one:
Facility/Service/Activity: Valley Shuttle
GMP: New bus service at El Portal, Crane Flat and Wawona
CSP: Improve operation, expand service
Amendment to GMP/CSP: Expand shuttle system to West Valley and Wawona. Construct shuttle bus stops at Camp 4 and El Capitan Meadow
Facility/Service/Activity: Muir Tree and Sunnyside (Camp 4) Walk-In Campgrounds
GMP: 58 sites
CSP:
Amendment to GMP/CSP: Muir Tree not mentioned. 70 walk-in sites (add 35 sites)
Appendix B
Wahhoga Indian Cultural Center
In keeping with Yosemite’s General Management Plan, the National Park Service entered into an agreement with the American Indian Council of Mariposa County, Inc. (also known as The Southern Sierra Miwuk Nation) in 1997 to work together in establishing an Indian Cultural Center at Wahhoga, the site of the last historically occupied Indian village in Yosemite Valley (just west of the Camp 4 walk-in campground). The center will provide a location for traditionally associated American Indian peoples to practice traditional cultural activities and ceremonies, as well as teach traditional lifeways. The center will be available to the public and provide a unique opportunity for visitor awareness of local Native American cultures. Through this understanding of local culture and traditions, guests will gain a greater understanding of the park’s natural and cultural resources and their significance to the cultural systems of traditionally associated American Indians. The project has been designed to include both traditional and modern structures. The traditional structures planned for the site include a ceremonial roundhouse, one sweatlodge, and numerous cedar bark umachas (conical houses), and a sun shelter and demonstration area. A historic cabin would be relocated to the site. A community building and small parking area would comprise the modern buildings and structures.
Construction on traditional structures began in 2009; there is no current estimated date for project completion.
Appendix J
ONA-2-004 - Expansion of Camp 4 eastward to provide 35 walk-in sites
TRAN-2-017 and TRAN-2-016 - Construction of a Shuttle Bus stop near Camp 4, and the establishment of a new parking lots for Camp 4 campground
TRAN-2-016 - In place of the old gas station, establish a new 41-space parking lot for Camp 4 campground. Additionally, construct a new 25- space overflow parking lot on the south side of Northside Drive.
Appendix K
ONA-2-004
Project Name: Camp 4 Campground Eastward Expansion
Issue Statement: Public comment indicated a desire to have more camping opportunities in Yosemite Valley. The rock-fall hazard study identified 8 campsites at Camp 4 that are within the rock-fall hazard zone.
Common To All: Camp 4 expanded eastward to provide 35 additional walk-in sites. Retain 35 walk-in campsites at Camp 4 (8 sites relocated out of the rock-fall hazard zone but remain within the Camp 4 footprint).
Alternative 5: (CTA) Camp 4 expanded eastward to provide 35 additional walk-in sites. Retain 35 walk-in campsites at Camp 4.
TRAN-2-016
Project Name: Camp 4 Parking
Issue Statement: The Camp 4 parking lot is inadequately sized for overnight parking and trailhead parking. Also, the demand for day-use parking in the area exceeds the supply.
Common To All: In place of the old gas station, establish a new 41-space parking lot for Camp 4 campground.
Alternative 5: (CTA) In place of the old gas station, establish a new 41-space parking lot for Camp 4 campground.
TRAN-2-017
Project Name: Camp 4 Shuttle Stop
Issue Statement: amp 4 Shuttle Stop for El Capitan shuttle is not a formal, appropriately designed shuttle stop.
Common To All: Construct a shuttle bus stop near Camp 4.
Alternative 5: CTA) Construct a shuttle bus stop near Camp 4.
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
The current new parking has 130 spaces, which is equal to the 89 existing parking places and the proposed additional 41 spaces that is talked about regarding the old gas station...
So contrary to the NPS representative's statement last week that the parking construction is not a part of the MRP, it seems to be very much a part of the MRP.
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
Does anyone know the contractor's name who is doing the parking area?
|
|
deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
|
|
|
|
deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
|
|
The showers idea sounds like a step toward familyizing camp 4. I have a family but believe Camp 4 should remain the province of climbers who are there to climb and have less need for a shower at their campsite. More sinks for dishes is what is needed. The last camp 4 plumbing upgrade, back in the 80’s was a disaster for after dinner clusterfuks—we used to have two buildings, one on each end of camp, each with a sink and toilets. The upgrade consolidated the two into one central one which was immediately too busy compared to having two locales. Having to wash dishes right at the entrance to the bathrooms is also a really bad idea.
But overall, it looks less like an expansion, but really a new campground in the Swan Slab area—that seems ok to me as long as they also retain the historical Camp 4 for the long term and most important keep the sites as walk-in sites. The death of Camp 4 as we know it would be if they put it into the dysfunctional Yosemite reservation system, in my opinion.
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
the detailed justifications are in the FY17 budget (we just entered FY18)
https://www.nps.gov/aboutus/upload/FY17-NPS-Greenbook-for-website.pdf
Project Title: Construct a 300 Space Parking Area West of Yosemite Lodge and Camp 4 Parking
Project Number: PMIS-196917B
Unit/Facility Name: Yosemite National Park
Project Description:
This is the final component of a multi-phased project.
This component is the last phase and will construct the 300-space visitor parking area for day use west of Yosemite Lodge and will construct a new 41-space parking area at the west end of Camp 4, a walk-in campground. During this final phase the parking facilities will be completed including finish grading, surface stabilization, parking area delineation and storm water management.
Previous components of this project were included in prior President’s Budget Request; pre-design was completed in FY 2014, and final design was completed in FY 2015, for a total of $886,987. The asphalt removal, rough grading site preparation, the construction of the new access driveway and the parking area improvements to the existing parking lots were submitted in the FY 2016 President’s Budget Request for a total of $1,879,964.
Scope of Benefits (SB):
The Merced Wild and Scenic River Plan was completed when the Record of Decision was executed in February, 2014 which directs the park in the consolidation and expansion of parking areas in several places outside the river corridor in order to better accommodate current visitation levels and to replace roadside parking that has been eliminated in Yosemite Valley. Transportation models identified the need for more parking spaces, and Yosemite Lodge already serves as a hub of the park’s shuttle system. The site is a previously disturbed area. In addition to serving 300 privately-owned vehicles for day-use visitors, the facility will be used for daily parking of regional transit buses, recreational and other oversized vehicles.
The Camp 4 parking expansions would be built to satisfy latent demand and in conjunction with the future expansion of the walk-in campground. The number of visitor parking vehicles routinely exceeds the capacity of the existing parking area. Visitors are currently directed to park across Northside Drive, the busiest road segment in Yosemite Valley, in the former lodge annex. Forty-one spaces would be added to accommodate more campers at Camp 4.
The project benefits include: 1) consolidation and contained expansion of parking areas outside the river corridor; 2) roadside parking eliminated in Yosemite Valley; 3) parking areas related directly to carrying capacity limits and better visitor use management; 4) additional parking provided for the Camp 4 walk-in campground; 5) minimization of conflict between pedestrians and automobiles; 6) a smooth transition from the use of private automobiles to the park's free shuttle system; and 7) improved visitor experience, recreational use and protection of river values by designating parking facilities where they are better integrated with transportation services in the existing built environment.
Investment Strategy (IS):
Initial design work was supported by the Federal Lands Transportation Program, a value of approximately $475,000; those funds are outside this project description.
This component allows the National Park Service construct the new parking area west of Yosemite Lodge and at the west end of Camp 4 walk-in campground. The parking spaces were removed from non-planned, undeveloped and inappropriate locations and replaced with the new parking area spaces. The Yosemite Lodge day-use and Camp 4 parking areas will provide 341 much-needed parking spaces to replace hundreds of informal parking spaces being removed from the roadways and edges of meadows and other scenic locations or sensitive resource areas. If no action is taken, hundreds of vehicles would continue to circulate on park roads, and park along road edges adding to congestion and impeding other visitors from accessing east Yosemite Valley in peak periods.
The site is currently used for temporary activities including transit bus daytime parking and materials storage. The site does not include natural or cultural resources that can be readily appreciated by park visitors.
Consequences of Failure to Act (CFA):
In 2006, following earlier planning efforts and litigation, the United States Eastern California District Court ordered the National Park Service to prepare a legally-valid comprehensive management plan for the Merced Wild and Scenic River. The project is key to addressing that requirement and resolving several issues raised in litigation. If the project is not completed in a timely manner, the National Park Service could be held in contempt or be otherwise found liable for failing to make a good-faith effort to implement the plan and protect the river values that were defined in the Merced River Plan and Environmental Impact Statement.
The Yosemite Lodge day-use and Camp 4 parking areas will provide 341 much-needed parking spaces to replace hundreds of informal parking spaces being removed from the roadways and edges of meadows and other scenic locations or sensitive resource areas. If no action is taken, hundreds of vehicles would continue to circulate on park roads, and park along road edges adding to congestion and impeding other visitors from accessing east Yosemite Valley in peak periods.
The site is currently used for temporary activities including transit bus daytime parking and materials storage. The site does not include natural or cultural resources that can be readily appreciated by park visitors.
Project Title: Construct Comfort Station West of Yosemite Lodge For New Day Use Parking Area
Project Number: PMIS-222754A
Unit/Facility Name: Yosemite National Park
Project Description:
Construct one new visitor comfort station at the west end of the Yosemite Lodge within the Yosemite Valley area of the park in a previously disturbed area. The proposed new comfort station will help accommodate the visitor needs associated with an adjacent shuttle bus stop and a new 300-car overflow parking area, both of which will be constructed as part of other projects.
The square footage and design features of the comfort station are to include up to 7 urinals, 22 toilets, and 13 sinks split between the men’s and women’s sides; and also will contain a family restroom with 2 toilets and 2 sinks. Each side will include at least one accessible toilet and sink. The building will feature up to 3 drinking fountains with water bottle filling capability and will be approximately 1,000 square feet in total size. The construction will be completed on-site with sustainable materials, possibly recycled, and is to include water conservation methods, energy-efficient interior lighting, and shielded, downward exterior lighting to enhance night skies. 50 to 100 linear feet of new sewer lines will be connected from the restroom to an existing sewer line that lies in the area. The sidewalks and walkways in the immediate vicinity of the comfort station and connecting to the overflow parking lot and the adjacent shuttle bus stop and visitor orientation gathering node will total approximately 5,000 square feet. All design work will be completed in accordance with the park’s design guidelines for Yosemite Valley, Division 1 Specifications for Construction, Architectural Barriers Act Accessibility Standards regulations and other standards.
Scope of Benefits (SB):
This new facility will serve 2,500 to 4,000 visitors daily. It will offer direct visitor contact with energy-efficient and water conserving amenities which provide the platform for education and awareness of National Park Service goals related to sustainability and global climate change. The new parking area design will greatly enhance visitor experience by providing a seamless “sense of arrival” featuring inviting pathways to draw newly-arrived visitors toward the existing shuttle stop and visitor services, such as Yosemite Lodge, as well as a view of Yosemite Falls. Because this is associated with a new parking area, there are no existing restroom facilities in this area. The nearest restroom is approximately ¼ mile away near the existing climbers’ camp, however this requires crossing the main road corridor (Northside Drive) and it is a substantial walking distance from the main parking area and main shuttle stop.
Investment Strategy (IS):
Anticipated operation and maintenance (O&M) costs for this new restroom could be up to $24,400 annually. The existing O&M cost is $0, as there is not currently a facility in this location. The annual costs to lease a building is cost prohibitive, because portable structures are subject to more utility concerns, such as sewer spills, and visitor damage and only last for a few years before major renovation is required. This makes the permanent structure a much more feasible, lower maintenance proposal. The park prepared a proposal for a modular unit and found cost would be upwards of $40,000 a year; it potentially could have to be replaced every one to two years. The maintenance of a modular unit will be up to $24,400 annually also. The rental would not alleviate the need for a restroom at this site due to the proximity of the shuttle bus stop and 300-car parking lot.
Consequences of Failure to Act (CFA):
The lack of restrooms in this area of Yosemite National Park is widely known and expressed by visitor complaints and 30-minute wait lines at the nearest climbers’ camp comfort station, ¼ mile away. Comfort stations provide perhaps the single most essential service to park visitors and are fundamentally important in providing for public sanitation, preventing disease and protecting water quality. If adequately-sized and located facilities are not made available, visitors will continue to relieve themselves in adjacent forested and wetland areas out of desperation.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
I need to get two big canteen mobile kitchens to serve these parking lots.
I'll become millionaire ...... :-)
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
from the FY15 budget:
Project Title: Construct a 300 Day-Use Parking Area and New Comfort Station West of Yosemite Lodge and Camp 4 Parking
Project Number: PMIS-196917C, D
Unit/Facility Name: Yosemite National Park
Project Description:
This project involves the construction of 300 space day-use visitor parking area west of Yosemite Lodge, a new 1,000 square foot comfort station associated with that day-use parking area, and a new 41 space parking area at the west end of Camp 4. The area identified for redevelopment for 300 visitor parking spaces is a previously disturbed site once known as the Yosemite Lodge Annex, an area that is now used for overflow bus parking, miscellaneous maintenance functions and storage. Parking will be added to Camp 4 to accommodate those visitors using the walk-in campground. New parking and the comfort station will be outside the Merced River corridor.
Work will be completed in two phases: Phase 1 of this project would begin in FY2016 with asphalt removal, rough grading site preparation, construction of the new access driveways and improvement of the parking areas at the former Yosemite Lodge Annex. Parking spaces would also be added to existing lots, and at Camp 4. During Phase 2 work in FY 2017, parking facilities would be completed including finish grading, surface stabilization, parking area delineation, and storm water management. The new 1,000 square foot comfort station will be constructed during phase 2.
Complete pre-design and final design in FY2015.
Justifications
The Merced Wild and Scenic River Plan (MRP) will be completed when the Record of Decision is executed in July 2013. Transportation models were developed as part of the planning process and identified needs for more designated parking areas. Thus, the MRP proposed consolidation and expansion of parking areas outside the river corridor to accommodate current visitation levels and to replace roadside parking that has been eliminated in the Yosemite Village area. The drivers of inbound buses, recreational vehicles and automobiles would be directed to park in this facility, necessitating the construction of a new restroom facility. The parking area at Yosemite Lodge would be built in conjunction with restoration actions that would restore disturbed areas and move facilities out of the floodplain.
The Camp 4 parking area would be built to satisfy latent demand and in conjunction with the future expansion of the walk-in campground. The number of visitor parking vehicles routinely exceeds the capacity of the existing parking area. Visitors are directed to park across the road, at the former lodge annex. 41 spaces would ultimately be added to accommodate self-sufficient camping in Yosemite Valley, and would replace campsites relocated from the rockfall hazard zone.
|
|
Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
|
|
All of the governmentese aside, the expansion planning was done by the usual office-dwellers who have never camped. Expansion of 25 campsites, each of which to accommodate 6 persons increases the burden on the already substandard sanitation facilities. I seem to recall that the new ladies bathroom will have 3 toilets, and the men's will have 2 plus a urinal. That, plus the showers. Since I've been coming to Yose for the period since 1965, the toilets are never 100 % functional. In other planning, the word REDUNDANCY comes up frequently. This plan is totally inadequate. I suspect the meeting, such as it was, was simply some bureaucratic eyewash to fill in a blank on some forms somewhere.
|
|
Mighty Hiker
climber
Outside the Asylum
|
|
It was an interesting meeting last Thursday. With a bit of effort, climbers if not the climbing community were reasonably represented.
Thanks to Ed for ferreting out all that information.
About 25 attended. Just before the meeting started, a giant dust cloud approached from the west. Foreshadowing? No, just the big rockfall.
Attendees included the park planner (Brad, a landscape architect), the interim (?) deputy superintendent, Ed Hartouni, Rodger Raubach, Ken Boche, Lisa, Pinky & Lori (camp rangers), Leo Burk, Jeff Elfont, Eric Bissell (climbing ranger), Linda (Ed's friend), Ron Kauk, four or five from the local First People, Jerry Greenleaf, Roger Brown, and others. We tried to ensure that there was a reasonable representation of climbers, especially those with some history and knowledge of Yosemite and Camp 4. Essentially, to show that we were quite interested and wanted to be more involved.
The presence of the deputy superintendent - someone fairly important, anyway - suggests that this wasn't just a "tick the public consultation box" planning meeting.
Brad showed us his plan of the proposed expansion, and it was discussed in some detail. Both the First Peoples and climbers seem not to have earlier known of the plan, at least not its specifics.
As both he and Ed pointed out, the plan in general has been long in the making, going back to the master plan of about 1980, the various lawsuits, and the eventual Merced River plan. Not to mention the lawsuit that led to protection of Camp 4 as a historic site. The plan isn't inconsistent with what has been discussed for years.
Later we did introductions.
It wasn't clear what role the Yosemite Climbing Association, the Access Fund, the American Alpine Club, and perhaps other groups have had and are having in this process. There seemed a consensus that there is a need in the process for a coordinated approach by climber organizations, and communications between NPS, climbers, and climber organizations, as to what is going to happen.
The project seems to have four phases, which will unfold over the next few years.
1. Road, parking lot, water and sewers. This is supposed to be finished by mid-November, and is based on a federal highways grant, apparently with add-ons.
2. Comfort station for new area. This will include two F and two M showers, something like five or six 'stalls' for each sex, and two 'cleaning' rooms.
3. Building the new part of Camp 4 - 25 sites.
4. Renovating the historic Camp 4, including replacing the ghastly toilets with another comfort station. (I wouldn't be surprised if this led to a reduction from 36 sites, but hopefully the work can be done in the off season.)
Some thoughts regarding this:
 Climbers often act as though Camp 4 is "their" campground. It doesn't appear that this has ever entirely been the case, whether it was 'tourists' in the lowlands in the 1960s, hippies in the 1970s, or the Latino families from greater Los Angeles who largely now inhabit it in the summer months. We'll always share the campground, and need to keep this in mind. Getting those city families out camping is as much part of the future of parks as are climbers.
Rodger rightly pointed out that two of the proposed comfort stations won't be enough for (36 + 25) x 6 = 366 nominal inhabitants, bearing in mind that renovation of the existing campground may somewhat reduce its size. (The new comfort station in historic Camp 4 will be downhill, apparently due to rockfall hazard - although Columbia Boulder seems to form a reasonable barrier.) What might work would be one comfort station as described (or a bit larger) in each of halves of the campground, with a toilet block in the middle near the parking, for walkers, Falls trail hikers, and climbers. With a separate 'stall' for the rangers, who also are grossed out by the existing toilets.
Token operated showers seem an excellent idea to me.
Given rockfall hazard assessment, I doubt that the camp will be expanded north or west.
The usage of Camp 4 might form an interesting master's thesis in sociology. However, overall females and males each comprise about 50% of the population. Even if there are somewhat more males than females in Camp 4 during climbing season (April 1 - June 15, September 1 - October 31), modern design for toilet facilities suggests that there be significantly more for females than males. And then there is the LBGTQ etc etc population to consider, not to mention access for small persons, persons with disabilities, etc.
The current anarchic parking lot sometimes holds up to 160-180 vehicles, according to a reliable source. The new one will take up much the same footprint, with half paved and half gravel. It is planned to have 120 spaces. Overflow parking across the road - expanding from 36 to 61 sites seems certain to require more room for vehicles.
It appears that there will be overflow parking across the road from historic Camp 4, but it will also be for bus parking. Not sure what that implies.
(My pet idea.) A hedge between the campground and the road, to reduce noise and provide a bit of privacy. Perhaps something about 2 m high, of native plants with lots of pointy bits. This could also be used to manage road crossing by pedestrians, currently the most exciting part of every climber's day.
I like Kevin and John's idea of using rocks to delineate campsites.
No thoughts regarding reservations and such, apart from observing that space should always be found somewhere for campers who arrive on foot or bicycle. As Ron K pointed out, John Muir is an icon, but did a fair amount of things in Yosemite that would now get him arrested.
Whatever they build must be robust, and assume that it will be abused.
The next time significant changes to Camp 4 are considered may be far away.
The devil will very much be in the details, as the project proceeds.
Hopefully they can find room for some historical nostalgia - maybe a Bachar ladder, and of course an exhibit of the different ways of hanging food away from the bears.
Camp 4 has always been in flux, in terms of location, facilities and use.
As John Eleazarian has pointed out, a larger issue is that there are now about 50% as many campsites in the valley as there were 40 years ago, notwithstanding increased traffic. The closure of the Upper and Lower River campgrounds after the 1996 - 97 floods eliminated a lot. Unless us humans manage to commit suicide through our own stupidity, human activity and thus need for camping in the valley seems likely to continue if not increase.
Whether it is possible to retain the spirit and culture of Camp 4, in the face of the various pressures, is a question that's hard to answer. Luckily, as Jim Donini and others point out, there's lots of room still in the world for spontaneity, you just have to work a bit more for it.
All in all an interesting afternoon - Facelift is always good for that sort of thing. Perhaps the Yosemite Climbing Association, the Access Fund, the American Alpine Club and the other usual suspects can now coordinate their efforts regarding this, both as to position, and the need for communications. Given the importance of Yosemite and Camp 4, even international organizations might lend a hand, and add perspective.
|
|
Gunkie
Trad climber
Valles Marineris
|
|
...expand Camp 4 to the east ending around the Uberfall in the Gunks.
|
|
Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
|
|
Yes Thank You for the over-view, it seems there is - good intent -
Lets take the No-Access funds advice . . .yeah, they are hiring
|
|
Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
|
|
Current state of C-4 is such that any self-respecting health department inspector would find it unfit for human habitation. The restroom facilities are marginal at best. Need a few more bear-proof dumpsters. How many have had upper and lower GI sickness while staying there?
|
|
Mighty Hiker
climber
Outside the Asylum
|
|
Rodger nails it - although I've always found in these camp situations that regular hand washing is a great help in avoiding illness. I always volunteer to wash the dishes.
I wonder if they envision some higher tech bear lockers, if there is such a thing? The current lockers are the second version that has been used in Camp 4, the first ones having a simple clip open/shut system. Whatever, perhaps quieter lockers could be invented. The "anvil chorus" gets a bit tiresome.
Nothing was said at the meeting about reservations and related campground management matters. Whether they'll shift from the current situation - awkward, but moderately fair - being an interesting question.
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
in all the planning as evidenced in the MRP documentation (though the MRP has not yet been legally challenged, I suspect it is only a matter of time) we find:
that 35 additional sites for the "walk in" campground
there are only 25 in this current expansion, we could ask why not 35 as stated in all the documentation
the intention seems to be to keep it a walk in, but there is a lot of chatter regarding reservations, we could ask where is this chatter coming from?
it has long been known that washing your hands is effective in preventing GI distress, especially prior to cooking. Much GI distress in camping situations attributed to other causes is actually just the result of "poopie hands."
|
|
AP
Trad climber
Calgary
|
|
I am sure your current president has some good ideas.
Trump Tower Camp4
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
prelude to the meeting...
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
there was a golf course at the Ahwahnee Hotel, removed in 1981... now that the hotel has been renamed perhaps they could try again... the POTUS likes his golf.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!