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Moof
Big Wall climber
Orygun
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May 24, 2017 - 07:36am PT
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Skeptic, agnostic, athiest, and now full on anti-theist. My 40 years of experience being on this planet have lead me down a path to where I see religion as a net negative.
But religion is emergent from our innate tribalistic instincts. You can see the same sorts of evils and negatives pop up in fervent sports fans. Humans feel best when it is us vs. them; not having an adversary, real or imagined, is deeply unsettling. So people align themselves based on dumb sh#t like the team they like watching, skin color, state/town of birth, decade of birth, high school or college they went too, gender, or even the fictional deity they pay lip service to each Sunday.
So getting rid of religion will only take away one of our tribalistic clusterf*#ks. Folks will quickly find fresh excuses to hate and kill each other.
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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May 24, 2017 - 07:39am PT
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There is a small handful of evil people in the world working hard to ruin the word "Religion."
Why: Because religion does way more good than harm.
If you think religion is bad, go back to the words of the original prophet (if you can). They had exceptional enlightenment and wanted to help people get better. Every one of them offer a program to make the world a better place.
Sicko's then grabbed their work, twisted and distorted it, then tried to ram it down people's throats with force.
When you believe that all religion is bad, you have been successfully duped by the evil in the world.
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Curt
climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
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May 24, 2017 - 07:45am PT
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When you believe that all religion is bad, you have been successfully duped by the evil in the world.
The same argument exists over guns. In reality, neither are inherently good or bad--it all depends on what you're doing with them.
Curt
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c wilmot
climber
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May 24, 2017 - 07:49am PT
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I only see one religion causing worldwide problems today...
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feralfae
Boulder climber
in the midst of a metaphysical mystery
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May 24, 2017 - 07:51am PT
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So... you are saying that Flying Spagetti monster worshippers are Quakers?
I am smiling. As I began to read the OP, I was wondering where this discussion might go. Quakers tend to be spiritual anarchists, and of course we have no dogma, but strive to be kind and act from compassion. Growing up with strong Quaker values, as well as being a student of LaoTzu, I find almost all organized, corporate religion is generally about turf and control of others. And money, of course.
Werner is right: few people know about spiritual introspection, self-examination, or the process of approaching life from a center of peace and kindness rather than from the perspective of some exclusionary dogma that creates "us versus them" mentality, and historically, that has led to a lot of bloodshed and mayhem.
As someone said, "Religion gives G*d a bad name." Think of all the horrid stuff that has been and is done in the name of religion. I don't know any shamans or medicine workers who try to control anyone, but maybe some do. I don't know any shamans or medicine people who consider themselves leaders or priests, or who recruit followers. Maybe some of them do.
I know a lot of the hierarchy in religion is designed for job security—and that positions of power and influence attract individuals who like to have power and control over others. I think spirituality is a do-it-yourself job. I think we must lead ourselves, spiritually. Maybe we can check out some of the guidelines we humans seem to be given occasionally if it helps us to find our way, but self-responsibility is at the center of spirituality.
And that old quote, "We will have peace on the day that the last politician is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." pretty much sums up my sentiments about power-addicted people.
So, I go into the mountains, breathe, open up to the beauty of the Earth. Religion is, IMHO, is pretty much a do-it-yourself job.
ff
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Curt
climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
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May 24, 2017 - 07:54am PT
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I only see one religion causing worldwide problems today...
The Republican Party?
Curt
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c wilmot
climber
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May 24, 2017 - 07:57am PT
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Curt- you should read up on what Hirsi Ali has to say about Islam, the concept of dawa, and western liberalism.
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Branscomb
Trad climber
Lander, WY
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May 24, 2017 - 08:02am PT
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I think it was James Joyce who said "I wish to awaken from the twin nightmares of religion and politics."
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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May 24, 2017 - 08:04am PT
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happiegrrrl2: Religion was designed, from inception, as a way to control people; what they think, how they behave, and how they interact with others.
That’s one interpretation. There are others.
It might be interesting to note that all religions seem to have been spawned from the followers of masters that had wide-open and abiding mystical experiences. Those masters never wrote anything down but merely tried to point to what they were seeing to followers who were attracted to the masters’ charisma. Later, it was the followers who wrote things down (often decades after the master had passed), but arguably not really understanding what the masters saw themselves. (Even His Holiness the Dalai Lama admits he is not liberated.) Thus arose organizations, policies, declarations about what things really are, generating celebrations of past events, re-enacting those events or remembered words of the masters in rituals, and establishing practices they believed reflected what the masters preached. That which Man makes seems inherently human. Religion are man-made. Every organization has significant problems. Every organization presents a community with a culture.
What matters is not religion or even God—but the mystical experience (from which religions all sprang).
I suspect you’re actually railing against myths. Myths appear to be reflections of the soul. They bear the stamp of imagination. They are collective dreams of communities expressed in narratives.
Understanding or criticizing myths rationally is not relevant. All communities have myths, even the ones that claim to be rational.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 24, 2017 - 08:06am PT
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"I only see one religion causing worldwide problems today..."
What a limited view of the world you have.
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Adventurer
Mountain climber
Virginia
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May 24, 2017 - 09:00am PT
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No matter where we live or what we believe or don't believe, I think the words of Thomas Jefferson are appropriate:
" It does me no harm if my neighbor believes in a different god or in no god at all"
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micronut
Trad climber
Fresno/Clovis, ca
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May 24, 2017 - 10:12am PT
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Religion was designed, from inception, as a way to control people
Happiegirl I strongly disagree with this thesis on all levels and would gladly share my thoughts as a Christian but the Supertopo forum has shown itself to be a fairly weak venue for true and healthy conversation when it comes to religion. I think I'll pass on this thread but I hope the best for you in your journey.
Scott
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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May 24, 2017 - 10:21am PT
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Religion is just part of the ecology of our human belief creation processes. Sure it's had a good run, like our opposable thumbs.
Would it be better for us, as socially minded humans, to be over it yet? IMHO, probably not.
But each of us true believers is gonna believe that we're right about whatever it is that we believe, so knock yourself out.
Best to you!
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Norton
Social climber
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May 24, 2017 - 10:26am PT
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1. Religion promotes tribalism.Infidel, heathen, heretic. Religion divides insiders from outsiders. Rather than assuming good intentions, adherents often are taught to treat outsiders with suspicion. “Be ye not unequally yoked with unbelievers,” says the Christian Bible. “They wish that you disbelieve as they disbelieve, and then you would be equal; therefore take not to yourselves friends of them,” says the Koran (Sura 4:91).
2.Sacred texts including the Bible, Torah and Koran all preserve and protect fragments of Iron Age culture, putting a god’s name and endorsement on some of the very worst human impulses. Any believer looking to excuse his own temper, sense of superiority, warmongering, bigotry, or planetary destruction can find validation in writings that claim to be authored by God.
3.As science eats away at territory once held by religion, traditional religious beliefs require greater and greater mental defenses against threatening information. To stay strong, religion trains believers to practice self-deception, shut out contradictory evidence, and trust authorities rather than their own capacity to think. This approach seeps into other parts of life. Government, in particular, becomes a fight between competing ideologies rather than a quest to figure out practical, evidence-based solutions that promote wellbeing.
4. Besides exploiting positive moral energy like kindness or generosity, religion often redirects moral disgust and indignation, attaching these emotions to arbitrary religious rules rather than questions of real harm. Orthodox Jews spend money on wigs for women and double dishwashers. Evangelical parents, forced to choose between righteousness and love, kick queer teens out onto the street. Catholic bishops impose righteous rules on operating rooms.
5.Religion teaches helplessness. Que sera, sera—what will be will be. Let go and let God.We’ve all heard these phrases, but sometimes we don’t recognize the deep relationship between religiosity and resignation. In the most conservative sects of Judaism, Christianity and Islam, women are seen as more virtuous if they let God manage their family planning. Droughts, poverty and cancer get attributed to the will of God rather than bad decisions or bad systems; believers wait for God to solve problems they could solve themselves.
6.Religions seek power.Think corporate personhood. Religions are man-made institutions, just like for-profit corporations are. And like any corporation, to survive and grow a religion must find a way to build power and wealth and compete for market share. Hinduism, Buddhism, Christianity—any large enduring religious institution is as expert at this as Coca-Cola or Chevron. And just like for-profit behemoths, they are willing to wield their power and wealth in the service of self-perpetuation, even it harms society at large.
In fact, unbeknown to religious practitioners, harming society may actually be part of religion’s survival strategy. In the words of sociologist Phil Zuckerman and researcher Gregory Paul, “Not a single advanced democracy that enjoys benign, progressive socio-economic conditions retains a high level of popular religiosity.” When people feel prosperous and secure, the hold of religion weakens.
http://www.alternet.org/belief/6-ways-religion-does-more-bad-good
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Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
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Topic Author's Reply - May 24, 2017 - 10:36am PT
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I suspect you’re actually railing against myths.
That may very well be. And it is why I asked if identifying as having "spirituality" would be enough, or one needed their "religion" to be okay.
I grew up going to a Catholic school and even considered becoming a sister throughout my life - even into my adulthood. Lest one think I was brainwashed or became disillusioned, I suppose the fact that I refused the Sacrament of Confirmation(yet considered the sisterhood for several years past that age) might be a sign that I was/am able to think and make decisions on my own accord. I appreciated some of the teachings I got, and enjoyed the pageantry of mass(though that was probably for the artistic aesthetic).
But when I hear legislators say things like "women can shut down a pregnancy from rape(paraphrase)," or turn on the radio to learn of a bombing that targeted young people to inflict a greater emotional pain(my assumption as to why the target at that concert n Manchester the other night), I seriously think "WTF? Where do these "good-willed" organizations go so, so so very, wrong, that people think they have God on their side in these matters?
I DO see gentle people, of many religious persuasions, and probably even more gentle people of no religious persuasions. I don't know that their personal religion is what makes them be so, and would argue they would likely be who they are no matter if affiliated with a religion or not. At least I would certainly hope so.
Edit: FWIW, I think Pope Francis rocks, and that the Catholic church should thank their lucky stars he is there.
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Cragar
climber
MSLA - MT
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May 24, 2017 - 11:05am PT
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Hey Happie-
I too went to Catholic school and also chose to forego the confirmation. I went to a fairly liberal school and I was not treated differently for my choice and Sister Mary always said anytime I wanted to talk about she was available. I love my school for the work we did for the poor. We put on a number of events/auctions, etc as a school where all of the proceeds went to help those in need. Some of the $$ generated from these events would go towards tuition for those in need. Even though it was a private school, we had kids from the Barrio to the CountryClub and it made for a better/healthier environment.
I was an aid to our athletic director on Friday afternoons of my senior year; it was a privilege and I learned more about community and giving during that time than almost the rest of my life. The rest of life has only reinforced what I learned about giving to those in need and just giving in general. I still make donations to my old HS even though I am primarily an AgnosticAtheist recovering Catholic!!! I got the teachings of a liberal Jesus not the modern American Jesus and I am grateful.
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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May 24, 2017 - 11:11am PT
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Religions are not bad per se, they are bad when co-oped by the Authoritarians( right wing leaders)
They pervert Religions into their own Authoritarian Power Structure to control and fleece the duped followers
Christianity has taken a life of it's own by the American fundamentalist movement. They want power and control of this country, and they will use any evil means to achieve their goal
It has little to do with Christ's actual teaching, it's all about power and repressing freedoms so the rich can get richer.
They can't even see fit to feed the starving or provide medical care for the sick, they're policies are morally bankrupt and the opposite of what Christianity is supposed to be all about
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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May 24, 2017 - 11:20am PT
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But religion is emergent from our innate tribalistic instincts. You can see the same sorts of evils and negatives pop up in fervent sports fans. Humans feel best when it is us vs. them; not having an adversary, real or imagined, is deeply unsettling. So people align themselves based on dumb sh#t like the team they like watching, skin color, state/town of birth, decade of birth, high school or college they went too, gender, or even the fictional deity they pay lip service to each Sunday.
So getting rid of religion will only take away one of our tribalistic clusterf*#ks. Folks will quickly find fresh excuses to hate and kill each other.
I agree that people have innate tribalistic instincts. Most groups of primates (including homo sapiens) for most of evolution have had a well grounded fear of being attacked by a hostile a group. Rallying around the "us" made a lot of sense and those groups that did, succeded better than those groups that didn't.
The relatively peaceful environment that most humans find themselves in today is very recent from an evolutionary perspective.
Sports have an element of vicarious warfare. Seems rather preferable to the real thing.
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