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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Dec 28, 2016 - 03:09pm PT
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Burch, you're going to give Cosmo a stroke!
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Curt
climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
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Dec 28, 2016 - 03:13pm PT
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Thats all I have ever hear from the AF, "we are working on it, join the AF and it will help"
I joined and donated and tried to get more detailed info and all I ever get is "hey, thanks for the interest, we are working on it.
From the AF link I posted earlier:
...In the spring of 2016 the Forest Service set aside $250,000 dollars to complete the environmental review and is hopeful to start the assessment in 2017. Access Fund is awaiting a management planning decision that may consider limited climbing. The final planning decision could take several more years due to the environmental review process that still needs to be conducted...
AF is working on it. If you know some way to speed up a multi-year environmental review by the USFS, the AF would love to hear about it. A lawsuit at this point would do absolutely nothing.
Curt
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Dec 28, 2016 - 03:25pm PT
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A lawsuit at this point would do absolutely nothing.
That is not exactly correct....according to my lawyer friends.
and big woop about $250,000 .... for a STUDY... the ANF needs good excuses for more study's... waste more of our $$$$ for squat-- to keep a bunch of do nothings in their jobs.
The real issue as far as I see it is the hike in.... the ANF will not open up a place with no "all access trail" ...
and Kevin.... that SD stuff looks awesome, really really awesome. But willie is a 15min down-climb.
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Dec 28, 2016 - 04:01pm PT
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I budgeted out an ecological risk assessment for the NPS at around $1,200. They said the least they would pay me was $20,000 and that's what I got. When my final draft said there wasn't an imminent threat to the study area I burned several bridges and got some angry emails from some coworker (not the NPS, they were cool).
Any time I see that there's an assessment going on it bums me out. Lots of bias and wasted money, not likely to end with more access unless there's some power behind the movement and some biologists who use logic.
Looks like a cool place, hope it works out.
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Lassitude 33
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Dec 28, 2016 - 04:43pm PT
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I was at the AF meeting in October in Colorado, and there is concerted effort being made to get some traction on the Williamson issue.
As a person whom climbed there for years and tried working with the ever shifting factions and managers at the USFS to get the area re-opened, I know this is incredibly frustrating. There is an effort now being made at getting a new local climbers organization to help spearhead this issue. Several younger LA area climbers are looking to take the initiative.
Lack of a coordinated local effort in recent years and poor continuity (and turnout) haven't helped either.
Not every access issue is easily or even quickly resolved. But, building good long term relationships and having a strong local group involved are essential.
It is my hope that 2017 will see some progress. Getting involved is essential.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Dec 28, 2016 - 08:50pm PT
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I've been curious about this business with the yellow legged frog. The San Gabriel's have lots of big, deep, and hard to access canyons. Many have probably never been visited by humans. Anyone think there might be frogs in there?
To get a real picture of the yellow legged frog population the CBD should helo some grad students, preferably one's who are not sensitive to poison oak, into remote areas. Let them rummage around in some real wild country instead of looking at a short bit of a roadside creek to draw their conclusions and call it research.
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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Dec 28, 2016 - 09:34pm PT
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I know the section of the Arroyo Seco between Switzers and JPL has some big deep pools. I kayaked it several years ago and while people do frequent it there are some pretty tough to get to sections around Royal Gorge. I'll bet there are plenty of frogs in there.
On a similar note in the Zion Narrows the park service won't let you paddle a kayak through the narrows at flows less than 150 cfs because they say the boat might kill some fish or bother them. I find this funny because they don't have any problem letting thousands of people trample through the water everyday but a boat is gunna kill them.
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Dec 28, 2016 - 10:08pm PT
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I know that looking sketchy has put in lots of time on access issues and will defer to him on what pften works best in situations such as this one, but I've always wondered at the sincerity of the alleged efforts to produce a proposed management plan. Given a court order (which granted I haven't read; if anyone has a copy it would be great if they could post it) directing the closure of the area, it would appear to provide an excuse not to work toward reintroducing climbers (see how I turned that jargon around) back to the area. I mean why would they create more work for themselves?
The situation is different than simply addressing access or liability issues with a private landowner, or purchasing property or an easement to grant access to a formerly closed area. Here, you have at least the pretext of the frogs (which do need places to live and breed) imposing a permanent closure. As long as you have frogs, they can argue that we can't have climbers.
Give the environmental directive, I don't see how community involvement is going to change that landscape. As someone posted upthread, either the frogs have recovered or they haven't. Perhaps I'm wrong here. Might there be some basis for challenging the efforts to comply with or enforce the order, i.e., did it close the area permanently or did it provide for subsequent monitoring, etc. If so, who's responsible for that and what, if any, sanctions are available for violating those directives? I'm just spitballing because, honestly, given the prior history, I don't see anything happening absent a good shove.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Dec 28, 2016 - 10:08pm PT
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I've come to think most every canyon in the state has been visited by some prospector at least once.
Could be. I know a guy who's pretty good at finding gold in San Gabriel canyons, but he never gets back into the really remote areas.
These mountains are right behind my house, I walk the trails up there a lot. Kit Carson called this range the most impenetrable mountains he had ever seen. When I'm cruising along on a trail up there I imagine what it would be like to be trying to move through the terrain 100 ft. to either side. If you were trying to cover ground off trail in these mountain they would kill you.
That said it's possible that bad-ass mountain men have explored some of these canyons. Doesn't change my point. Those mountains are full of yellow legged frogs, and deciding that a roadside creek is a study area is BS.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Dec 28, 2016 - 10:57pm PT
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I've flown over most of the San Gabriels and they are gnarly. Surely some
prospectors have sampled all the creeks but if there wasn't serious color
then a lot of them have not seen many human footfalls. If there are frogs
at Williamson then there are plenty more up there where the sun don't shine
and pansy-assed grad students won't go.
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jeff constine
Trad climber
Ao Namao
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Dec 29, 2016 - 06:57am PT
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Just talked to Brady Robinson AF Executive Pres. Sad it's still a no go.
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Dec 29, 2016 - 07:31am PT
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I've flown over most of the San Gabriels and they are gnarly. Surely some
prospectors have sampled all the creeks but if there wasn't serious color
then a lot of them have not seen many human footfalls. If there are frogs
at Williamson then there are plenty more up there where the sun don't shine
and pansy-assed grad students won't go.
Yup. ^^^ There likely are no frogs left at Williamson proper. The stream was bone dry for four full seasons plus the fire. Any frogs or eggs that were hanging on are extinct. The CBD needs to get its head out of ass and strap on some hiking boots to get to more remote areas that stayed wet through the drought if they are truly concerned about monitoring the frog.
deciding that a roadside creek is a study area is BS.
The closure is ludicrous at this point. If any of those researchers were actually studying anything down there they would see that.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Dec 29, 2016 - 07:36am PT
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Randy points out that these things aren't quickly resolved. There's the problem.
There's a billboard in San Bernardino next to the jail advertising bail bonds. It says "I'll get you out if it takes twenty years". Of course, by then, the damage is done. Same with Williamson.
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Dec 29, 2016 - 07:47am PT
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I don't think any "damage" is really being done- initially I felt it was good to give the falcons and frogs some reprieve from the people but the reason for the closure is defunct now.
Change is excruciatingly slow. Unfortunately the bureaucratic gears to reverse the decision seem to be rusted solid at the moment. Access fund is still "working on it". The demand to reopen this particular area is high so its good to keep after them and support them in their efforts.
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jeff constine
Trad climber
Ao Namao
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Dec 29, 2016 - 07:48am PT
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You barely climb Skip U know nothing, what you went 2 times and you are the know it all of Willy. I climbed there for almost 20 years saw you once.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Dec 29, 2016 - 07:54am PT
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Access fund is still "working on it"
Too bad that what they're working on isn't the problem. The problem is gubmint that exists for
itself and has built an array of bureaucratic defenses that ensure job security and not having
to make any decisions, especially (in the case of the Angeles Nat Forest) any that might entail
their having to leave their Arcadia Taj Mahal.
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Dec 29, 2016 - 08:05am PT
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Your eloquent contributions to any given subject always impress me Jeff.
Don't get me started on the "gumbint" employees biding their time doing as little as possible waiting for retirement.
(I work with a posse of them.)
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jeff constine
Trad climber
Ao Namao
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Dec 29, 2016 - 08:15am PT
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what are your contributions to climbing skip? U got an AMGA cert to teach people that you never use. Ah you put 100 route lol NOT. Oh you helped make a few trails and unsightly platforms at the gorge. lol
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Dec 29, 2016 - 08:44am PT
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Justhemaid... good to see you posting... I need to speak to you about a different matter... you and Mr E going to Marks party on NYE?
The E-mail function is down.... on this Taco Stand.
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jeff constine
Trad climber
Ao Namao
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Dec 29, 2016 - 08:58am PT
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Sorry folks im having a funky day. Had to do a rescue yesterday some dood busted his flipper, had do a bunch of unfun stuff to deal. ruined my day.
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