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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Dec 10, 2016 - 08:25am PT
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The Chouinard Carabiner beginning story from Marty’s mind….
I believe the first thing that Yvon Chouinard created was a Lost Arrow and that was in 1957. But in 1957 Chouinard’s biggest intention was to create the first ringless angle pitons. I have yet to see a drawing or photo of these 1957 angles, but they are mentioned in the Chouinard firsts list. I believe the third item on Chouinard’s mind was creating a carabiner, which in 1957 the carabiner was only in the drawing stage of creation.
In the same 1965/66 Chouinard catalog as the Chouinard firsts list, is a mention of the carabiner stating that it was first introduced in 1958. It actually states, “The first Model was introduced in 1958…..then years following it went through gate and spring changes.” The first Model Chouinard carabiner did not have the word “Chouinard” on it and only a handful were made early in 1958. The gate was slightly shortened and rounded on one end and is considered the Model II, but I feel that there were only a handful of these made as well just to be used as test items given to friends.
In the March 1960 Dolt catalog it states that “during the 1959 climbing season” (Spring - Fall?), Chouinard introduced the Model III carabiner to the outer public. So I know all of the collectors and historians have the amazing Chouinard carabiner dialed into 1957, but facts are facts. So in reality the Chouinard carabiner was not mass produced until 1959 and it was considered the Model III. The Model III name got dropped since the other two models were just short runs for testing. However in the 1966 catalog Chouinard still uses the word Model to describe the carabiner.
So Fritz I love you, and you are the Chouinard carabiner master historian, but you throw aside the word Model when describing the 1957-1959 story of the Chouinard carabiner. Chouinard I am sure helped Dolt with Chouinard product wordage for the Dolt 1960 catalog, and Chouinard uses the word Model in his 1965/66 catalog so I believe the “Model III” description words in the Dolt catalog came from Chouinard personally.
For the confusion in the firsts list I believe that Chouinard in 1964/65 when he first created his firsts list, was most proud of his Chouinard carabiner and wanted it to be listed first overall. So Chouinard combined the two years showing that sometime in 1957-58 a carabiner was created, angels, and lost arrows. Otherwise if all three of these items were first created in 1957, then why also mention 1958? Also why did Chouinard not just list the carabiner as first made in 1958? The gear historians are the ones who push this carabiner as being sold to the public in 1957.
I am sharing this post to the Chouinard Gear Mystery Questions thread.
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 10, 2016 - 03:43pm PT
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Marty: I did look at the 1965 Chouinard catalog carabiner ad before posting on the timeline of the first Chouinard carabiners, however I confess to forgetting about the 1960 DOLT catalog that talks about 3 models of CHOUINARD ALCOA carabiner.
My apologies.
I carefully looked at my three ALCOA carabiners today under 7 – X magnification. All three weigh in at 70 grams on my digital postal scale.
I see three very minor differences that agree with the Dolt & 1965 Chouinard catalog claims that later models of CHOUINARD ALCOA carabiners were improved over the no-CHOUINARD prototype.
In the below photo with the prototype no-CHOUINARD carabiner sandwiched by the two CHOUINARD ALCOA biners, I can see a raised spine on the body of the CHOUINARD ALCOA biners. This spine is on the part of the carabiners just behind the hinge-pin & just in front of the gate pin, and would have added strength.
In the below photo, the ends of the gate & hinge pins are slightly rusty or corroded on the no-CHOUINARD prototype at right, although its pins are bright & un-rusted inside the gate. It appears that the hinge-pin side of the CHOUINARD ALCOA at the left side of the photo is also slightly raised, which would have added strength.
So of course, the question arises, if my no-CHOUINARD, Alcoa prototype is Model I & the CHOUINARD ALCOA carabiners I show, are Model III, what determines a Model II? I suspect any differences are exceedingly subtle.
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Dec 10, 2016 - 06:15pm PT
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The only difference I found between a Model II and Model III besides a weaker gate spring, is that on the end of the gate that is hinged, the Model II is straight on the top then rounds leaving an apparent point. The Model III is more rounded on the top then rounds leaving almost no point. The Model I is obvious with an obvious point besides no "Chouinard" on the carabiner body. Your photo shows a great Model III sample and a priceless Model I sample.
The tags in my photo are incorrect and should read Model I 1958 (early), Model II 1958, Model III 1959.
Fun Stuff!
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Dec 13, 2016 - 09:08am PT
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To be clear about the succession of distinct very early Chouinard carabiners, Yvon had dies made to have Alcoa drop forge the carabiner bodies. These dies eventually wear out and the replacement die often reflected subtle design improvements.
The very first die lot did not have CHOUINARD incorporated into the raised lettering on the bodies as they arrived. Tom Frost pointed this out to Yvon the first time that he pulled one out of his pocket and introduced it to Tom as his own product. American made hardware other than military surplus was rare and Tom was a bit skeptical of Yvon's claim of ownership and commented "besides, I don't see your name anywhere on it."
Yvon's quick solution was to have his name carefully ground into the existing first die before the next original die lot was produced. Because the original die was already made and hardened, the added lettering was far from crisp and distinctly raised as compared to the intentional lettering already present in that die. I like to call it the "ghost of Chouinard".
So you have two versions of the first die runs with only the original die lot of perhaps a few hundred lacking "CHOUINARD." I am not quite sure how Bill arrived at his model designations as per his catalog but I don't think it was a direct reflection of the succession of dies as much as perhaps the detailing on the gate or other machining that would have changed once Yvon began assembling and finishing the entire carabiner in quantity.
In any case, the anonymous Alcoa is the rarest of the early Chouinard carabiners and thanks to a timely gear purchase by Roots we have a few examples to show and discuss. Tom's story was the clue that got me looking past the ghost of Chouinard in the first place finally arriving at the proper historical perspective. I haven't had the opportunity to ask Yvon about any of this as I have still not met or interviewed him but hope to in the near future.
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AP
Trad climber
Calgary
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Dec 13, 2016 - 10:32am PT
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I was climbing in J Tree with Steve Roper back in 2002?
We head up to the crag and Steve pulls out a rack with new Petzl Express draws strung with biners he stole from Chouinard back in 1964!
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 13, 2016 - 12:17pm PT
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Steve! Thanks for filling in some of the history on Chouinard's first carabiners. I much appreciate your insider knowledge.
AP! Great story. By the late 1990's I had moved my 1972 vintage Chouinad/Salewa biners to my river-trip accessory-biner stash, but I was still happily using the 1975 model Chouinard-USA 4000 lbs. biners for climbing. All my pre-1980 biners are now living a gracefull retirement.
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Dec 14, 2016 - 07:09pm PT
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Steve - is there still 3 versions of the early Chouinard carabiner?
No Chouinard
Ghost Chouinard
More crisp Chouinard
or was there just 2 - No Chouinard, and ghost Chouinard?
Just wondering if when they made a newer die other than the first, they more perfected the Chouinard word?
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I still believe that Chouinard was classifying his first carabiners as models. The Model III was the perfection. In the 1965/66 catalog Chouinard writes "the first model Chouinard carabiner....', but why does he say that when the second Chouinard carabiner wasn't created until 1968? So why say the first model when there is still only one style carabiner, unless there are other Chouinard carabiners to compare it to as progression.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Dec 14, 2016 - 07:42pm PT
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Marty- I can't recall seeing an Alcoa biner with CHOUINARD lettering as crisp as the "820" and "Alcoa" so I think that those biners were made from a single die which was engraved with the ghostly CHOUINARD after the first die lot. If you have seen one then a second die was employed to continue production.
I think the model designations had more to do with gate assembly details like the hinge pin material, springs and some other machining details that you point out in comparison. To establish that a second die was involved in producing the Alcoa biners you would need a variation in the body shape as they came from Alcoa rather than variations in the finishing of said bodies.
Yvon was competing with army surplus oval carabiners which were very cheap so I am not sure that he sold a lot of them at a higher price early on.
Without asking Yvon directly about this there is now way to work out the Model designations in Bill's catalog. I think it had more to do with Bill's discerning attention to detail as the product was improved during production.
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